SaraEA Posted April 20, 2017 Report Share Posted April 20, 2017 Clients were an elderly couple with nice pensions, some investments, and over a dozen rental properties. As the years went by it was obviously more difficult for husband to keep up with the books for the rentals so I put them on extension and eventually the numbers came through. One of those years he was very ill and let the Oct 15 deadline pass by; he died that December. The following year I did both the missing and current return, both with hefty balances due, and even got IRS to waive the penalties. She is in her early 80s and appears to be quite with it. Yet in trying to get documents from her I realized she is lost in paperwork. Trying to keep track of taxes, insurance, repairs etc on all those rentals would be difficult for anyone, but I couldn't even get Soc Sec statements or 1099s without her spending two weeks looking around. (I finally pulled IRS transcripts.) One day when she brought me a stack of papers I found a ES voucher from 2012 so I put it in the shred bin. I told her she would never need it but she got upset enough that I pulled it back out and returned it to her. Obviously she can't keep track of anything because she has every piece of paper she ever got. I gave her a big envelope marked "taxes" and told her to put every envelope that came in marked "important tax information" in there this year. Bet it's empty. I haven't heard from her so put her on extension and wonder when I'll find out. In the past, I suggested she might hire a property manager, which she thought was a wonderful idea. I also suggested she talk with her children about taking over the rentals. When her husband died, neither I nor her lawyer could convince her she needed to go to probate to have properties re-titled. She has excuse after excuse for not doing this or finding that, but I believe she doesn't want to admit she has lost control of her finances and no longer has the ability to handle them. I feel I need to tell someone that she needs help with all this, but who? I don't really know the children, and her attorney is elderly himself and long ago retired. It matters because they typically owe, and forgitabout her making estimates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee B Posted April 20, 2017 Report Share Posted April 20, 2017 Unfortunately, the situation is only going to get worse. I have been both directly involved and talked to clients about similar situations. It's hard to do but you need to reach out to the children or become more actively involved with this lady's recordkeeping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NECPA in NEBRASKA Posted April 20, 2017 Report Share Posted April 20, 2017 I am not even sure what you can do legally to reach out to the children unless their mother involves you. I have a situation like that where my client obviously has bad memory issues like coming on the wrong days and wrong times . I followed him driving one day and was petrified. His wife and only child are dead and I have no idea of anyone that I could reach or if I legally could anyway. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schirallicpa Posted April 20, 2017 Report Share Posted April 20, 2017 I was engaged a few years ago to help an elderly woman with her checkbook and help her sort mail and pay bills. She did not have children, but had a nephew who was afraid he was not going to be getting any money from her because she was making too many donations to the church. Now - I was young and didn't realize how messy this could get. But after a few months of helping her, the nephew called me up just furious because my name was on a credit application that she received in the mail. Yikes! I did not apply for anything, but my name got on her mailing lists, and so he accused me of trying to get credit in her name. And he was also mad because I had "allowed" her to continue to make contributions to the church. I certainly could not stop any one from making a contribution. But somehow he felt that I was supposed to. I quickly disengaged myself from that mess. (Unfortunately shortly after that they managed to sedate her heavily and moved her to a nursing home where she died a very untimely death, in my opinion.) So - anyway - BEWARE! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Posted April 20, 2017 Report Share Posted April 20, 2017 Unfortunately, without a Section 7216 disclosure, you cannot tell ANYONE (her kids, her lawyer, her minister) that she is even your client. The only thing I can think of is to ask her to have one of her kids drive her over for the next appointment "so that you have some help carrying those papers in" and the tacit approval of having brought her kid along might make it possible to talk to the kid. "Let's ask Mary's opinion since she's here" sort of thing. Nasty tightrope to walk. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roberts Posted April 20, 2017 Report Share Posted April 20, 2017 There is a group of people out there who's job is to help their clients with their finances and making sure everything is in order and working for them properly. On this site many like to bash them as being irrelevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Posted April 20, 2017 Report Share Posted April 20, 2017 I would never bash those people - however, I also do NOT want to BE one of them. The bonding and insurance requirements are stringent, and the liability risk high. However, we cannot call them and give clients' names. We can only recommend to a client. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jklcpa Posted April 20, 2017 Report Share Posted April 20, 2017 Who are we bashing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnH Posted April 20, 2017 Report Share Posted April 20, 2017 Financial advisors and brokers. But I've seldom seen them acting responsibly in these types of situations either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Posted April 21, 2017 Report Share Posted April 21, 2017 3 hours ago, JohnH said: Financial advisors and brokers Oh. I thought we were bashing the specialty niche of those who pay bills for elderly clients. Hugely helpful to their clients but the liability gives me the willies. For financial advisors - I know some really good ones. Completely outnumbered by the ones who need Rita's back yard post-hugging. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnH Posted April 21, 2017 Report Share Posted April 21, 2017 Yes, I have met a few whom I believed deserved the trust placed in them. But they are overshadowed by the vast majority who place their own interests above that of their clients. Commissions & fees are the major force driving their decisions and investment "advice". Far from being irrelevant, they are very relevant in a negative sort of way - they are a danger to their client's financial well-being. Miserable track records and highly dubious investments abound. But they can always be counted upon to have all the proper signatures on the CYA forms. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richcpaman Posted April 21, 2017 Report Share Posted April 21, 2017 11 hours ago, Catherine said: Oh. I thought we were bashing the specialty niche of those who pay bills for elderly clients. Hugely helpful to their clients but the liability gives me the willies. For financial advisors - I know some really good ones. Completely outnumbered by the ones who need Rita's back yard post-hugging. I can understand a Financial Advisor/broker role here, but in the instant case, those funds are under control and safe. IT is the management of the Rentals that is causing all the grief here. I had something similar. Though the client was lucid, and getting buried in paper, she really did not want the help. Some folks, no matter what, do NOT want to admit that they may be messed up... I offered to come by the house and help sort stuff, or even one of my lower cost staff members. No. There are appropriate ways to bring in support. But you can lead a horse to water... Rich 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roberts Posted April 21, 2017 Report Share Posted April 21, 2017 Many financial advisors sign off on a fiduciary agreement with the client. The lack of knowledge on the issue is silly. Comparing a professional advisor to a salesperson at Northwestern or Ameriprise is like comparing a professional tax planner to the person at Liberty Tax who took a 3 week class. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RitaB Posted April 21, 2017 Report Share Posted April 21, 2017 1 hour ago, Richcpaman said: Some folks, no matter what, do NOT want to admit that they may be messed up... I offered to come by the house and help sort stuff, or even one of my lower cost staff members. No. There are appropriate ways to bring in support. But you can lead a horse to water... Yeah, if Sara's lady doesn't want to part with a 2012 1040-ES voucher, well, in the words of a country song, "You can push me in, but you cain't hold me under." 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gail in Virginia Posted April 24, 2017 Report Share Posted April 24, 2017 If she doesn't make estimated payments, is that because she chooses not to, or forgets/loses track of the paper? You might be able to suggest having the estimates automatically deducted from her checking account, which you can set up when you do the return. Of course, as late as you are getting information and preparing the return, I don't think that will work either..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILLMAS Posted April 24, 2017 Report Share Posted April 24, 2017 There are a ton of how to fire client video on YouTube, I was just watching a video and the presenter encourages accountants to bill for the 5 min call why: You can't do other work because your attention is on them Billing them will probably reduce calls from demanding clients @SaraEA don't stress yourself out 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Posted April 24, 2017 Report Share Posted April 24, 2017 4 hours ago, ILLMAS said: I was just watching a video Want to give us the link? Sometimes I think we're just all too nice and don't get rid of problem clients fast enough. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILLMAS Posted April 24, 2017 Report Share Posted April 24, 2017 9 minutes ago, Catherine said: Want to give us the link? Sometimes I think we're just all too nice and don't get rid of problem clients fast enough. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RitaB Posted April 24, 2017 Report Share Posted April 24, 2017 1 hour ago, Catherine said: Want to give us the link? Sometimes I think we're just all too nice and don't get rid of problem clients fast enough. I am trying to keep it shorter, because I think they lose all letters over three or four sentences. Dear (Ex) Client: It's me, not you. (It's you.) I am writing to inform you that my business is going in a new direction (away from you), and I be unable to provide services to you in the future. Good luck (with the next poor fool you make miserable)! 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Posted April 24, 2017 Report Share Posted April 24, 2017 @RitaB I just LOVE your sense of humor! 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RitaB Posted April 24, 2017 Report Share Posted April 24, 2017 6 hours ago, ILLMAS said: There are a ton of how to fire client video on YouTube, I was just watching a video and the presenter encourages accountants to bill for the 5 min call why: You can't do other work because your attention is on them Billing them will probably reduce calls from demanding clients @SaraEA don't stress yourself out I wouldn't fire this lady yet. I'd be doing what Sara is doing: trying to figure out a way to help her. I am thinking of a client I have who's in this shape, too. I'm pretty sure he's having some dementia issues. It's sad - he has been such great client, and I'd be happy to sort thru his stuff if he'd just bring it. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gail in Virginia Posted April 25, 2017 Report Share Posted April 25, 2017 It can be frustrating trying to help clients when they get in this predicament. And we don't always know the whole story. But sometimes it seems that wealthy clients have family in the wings who can't wait to get their hands on the money. I've seen clients that have lost the ability to handle their own affairs get totally ripped off by family. And family that turns on each other as soon as there is an estate to divide. Makes me so sad, and mad. I wish sometimes that I could hug as well as Rita. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Posted April 25, 2017 Report Share Posted April 25, 2017 I've seen SO many families ripped apart over the years, by bad planning, not wanting to admit lack of current ability, and greed. They far outnumber the ones where planning is done correctly, everyone knows what to expect, and those helping are content to help but not to help themselves (you know what I mean). And it doesn't take a big estate to produce the ravening wolves, either. Guess it's a lesson to all of *us* not to believe we are immortal, to address our own planning needs (*and* publicize them so there are no surprises and no possibility of someone trying to steal and hide, much as we hate to admit the possibility) - and also to warn our clients to address this decades before it becomes an issue. Sigh. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RitaB Posted May 1, 2017 Report Share Posted May 1, 2017 On 4/24/2017 at 3:48 PM, RitaB said: I am thinking of a client I have who's in this shape, too. I'm pretty sure he's having some dementia issues. It's sad - he has been such great client, and I'd be happy to sort thru his stuff if he'd just bring it. This little gentleman's brother from Florida (whose return I also do) brought him in today to pick up 2017 1040-ES forms. Brother said, "I received my forms that you mailed me, thank you, but Frank didn't get his," and he winked at me. I printed Mr. Frank some more forms and I'm hoping we talked enough about what I need to prepare the 2015 return that brother will get the ball rolling. It's sad, and I really feel for the ones with no family to help. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FDNY Posted May 1, 2017 Report Share Posted May 1, 2017 Good for you Rita, going above and beyond for your clients to be sure they are OK is both honorable and to them, a comfort. They deserve it as they know they have to get their taxes paid, worry about it, but sadly, may forget why or when. That's where having the patience to satisfactorily get the job done gives us and them peace of mind. Means more than money hearing "thank you, I don't know what I would do without you." I know you gave these guys a hug, but for a different reason. Frank's brother is going to be talking about you at his next shuffleboard match. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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