Edsel Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 Any help from someone familiar with Missouri withholding is appreciated. We're having fits getting people's net pay to agree with last year, taking over for another payroll service. The old payroll service claimed to have expertise in all states. 1. Line 1 of the Missouri W-4: When someone claims "1" does this mean they are claiming one ADDITIONAL exemption or does it mean only themselves? 2. Single vs. Married. From what I can read, if a spouse works, the effective withholding status is exactly the same as single for all calculations. This appears to be true regardless of which line is filled out. Is this correct? Thank you for your help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abby Normal Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 Try Paycheck City's calculator: https://www.paycheckcity.com/calculator/salary/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edsel Posted January 9, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 Thank you Abby. My problem is not the calculation but the definition of what goes in to the calculation. Best regards, Edsel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 @Edsel - you could still use the calculator link. Pick the simplest employee, poke in numbers until you get a match, and then you'll know if that exemption is in addition to, or not. Then add in married, see if the calculator changes things. A bit iterative and inelegant but it should work, and you should get an answer in 15 minutes. Better than searching for definitions for an hour and then having to do samples to make sure they're right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BulldogTom Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 1 hour ago, Catherine said: A bit iterative and inelegant I did not even know what "iterative" meant until 2 years ago when I had to calculate the SE HI Deduction for a Sch. C client with the advanced premium credit. Now I hate that word. Pairing it with "inelegant" is perfect. Tom Modesto, CA 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medlin Software, Dennis Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 Personally, I would not worry about what any other person or service calculated. What matters is what you prepare needs to be accurate. (If you are entering last year's after the fact, then no calculation matters, you are stuck entering whatever was done, correct or not.) FWH for 2018, so far, is the same calculation as 2017. Same for MO, since MO is waiting for FWH to be published before publishing theirs. You do not have to interpret any employee intent on their MO W4 type form, you just have to take the employee's information, and use it. The form and calculations work together. http://dor.mo.gov/forms/Withholding Formula_2017.pdf P.S. Most tax agencies also allow an employer to use their own calculation/formula, as long as it calculates with a certain range of the published methods. FWH, for instance, allows a WIDE latitude. CT, as another example, states there is no formula or calculation possible (has to be done through charts and steps), but every payroll software provider has likely done what I did many years ago, and built a formula which exactly matches the charts/steps... 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 1 hour ago, BulldogTom said: what "iterative" meant It's what calculus was designed to circumvent; elegant equations rather than recurring clunky equations until the solution converges. Anyone who went to engineering school knows the term. Now all we need is a differential equation solution to the SEHI with premium tax credits! Know anyone with an advanced degree in math? @RitaB perhaps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RitaB Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 2 hours ago, BulldogTom said: I did not even know what "iterative" meant until 2 years ago when I had to calculate the SE HI Deduction for a Sch. C client with the advanced premium credit. Now I hate that word. Pairing it with "inelegant" is perfect. Tom Modesto, CA 40 minutes ago, Catherine said: Now all we need is a differential equation solution to the SEHI with premium tax credits! Know anyone with an advanced degree in math? @RitaB perhaps? No advanced degree in Math, but I’ll never forget Tom’s post on that problem. Every time I have to do that iterative calculation, I just search for “oh shit” in the ACA forum. Yes, inelegant is the perfect word. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edsel Posted January 10, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 50 minutes ago, Catherine said: Know anyone with an advanced degree in math? @RitaB perhaps? Catherine that would be myself. But Differential Equations were my Achilles Heel. It required an integral mind (making something out of nothing) instead of a differential mind (looking at something and dividing it into interactive pieces and parts). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaraEA Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 You mean you haven't mastered partial differential equations? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max W Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 1 hour ago, Catherine said: It's what calculus was designed to circumvent; elegant equations rather than recurring clunky equations until the solution converges. Anyone who went to engineering school knows the term. Now all we need is a differential equation solution to the SEHI with premium tax credits! Know anyone with an advanced degree in math? @RitaB perhaps? Calculus won't work for SEHI, because everytime a calculation is made, the parameters change. Calculus works for curves, arcs, parabolas, catenarys & straight lines, at least as far as I remember Calculus & Dif EQ from university classes in the mid 1950's. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 18 minutes ago, Max W said: everytime a calculation is made, the parameters change Oooh! Now we get into multi-variant analysis! Shades of advanced calculus (MIT's much-dreaded "18.075" course of song and legend). Took that monster in 1979; passed with a "D" (a passing grade at MIT) and I have never worked harder to pass a class in my entire life than that one. Even my husband (a genius) took it all by itself as a summer course; I took it along with four other classes while working on weekends. Ugh. I lived - barely! About all I remember at this point is the "Method of Frobenius" - not how to DO it, just the name! Oh; and the heat conduction partial differential. For some utterly bizarre reason, anything to do with thermodynamics always made perfect sense to me. Not so much in other areas. I still think Edsel can get his answer using the brute-force and inelegant iterative method. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edsel Posted January 10, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 4 hours ago, SaraEA said: You mean you haven't mastered partial differential equations? Sorry, I never mastered any differential equation. I have nightmares about that dangling spring bouncing back and forth (like a giant slinky toy) and professor asking how how many seconds it would take to stop bouncing. This discussion from 3-4 of you bring back memories of lots of things I couldn't do. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abby Normal Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 Just tell the employees that the withholding tables changed. As long as they're getting more, they won't complain. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BulldogTom Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 All Y'all are still talkin' 'bout that dang Obamathingy that makes ya pay up for the exchange money they give ya to git that insurance no one will take? Tom Modesto, CA 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynn EA USTCP in Louisiana Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 17 minutes ago, BulldogTom said: All Y'all are still talkin' 'bout that dang Obamathingy that makes ya pay up for the exchange money they give ya to git that insurance no one will take? Tom Modesto, CA No, Tom, I think they are talking about the pending changes to the withholding tables. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abby Normal Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 I wonder if the new W4 will ask about your kids ages and factor in the 2,000/500 per kid tax credit. Now that exemptions are gone, your withholding is not affected by allowances, unless credits are considered. And they had better eliminate the married checkbox, because if a newly wed couple makes the mistake of both changing their W4 forms to married (happens every year), they're going to owe 12%-24% (or more) of 24,000. Then they'll be screaming about an nonexistent marriage penalty. Instead of the married single checkboxes, they should add a yes/no question: "Do you have a spouse who does not have any income?" Answering yes will tell payroll to use the married withholding tables. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RitaB Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 12 hours ago, Catherine said: I still think Edsel can get his answer using the brute-force and inelegant iterative method. This is my personal motto. And my other motto is hug them to measure for the grave in the back yard. My version of arbitrary constant of integration. 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medlin Software, Dennis Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 49 minutes ago, Abby Normal said: I wonder if the new W4 will ask about your kids ages and factor in the 2,000/500 per kid tax credit. Now that exemptions are gone, your withholding is not affected by allowances, unless credits are considered. And they had better eliminate the married checkbox, because if a newly wed couple makes the mistake of both changing their W4 forms to married (happens every year), they're going to owe 12%-24% (or more) of 24,000. Then they'll be screaming about an nonexistent marriage penalty. Instead of the married single checkboxes, they should add a yes/no question: "Do you have a spouse who does not have any income?" Answering yes will tell payroll to use the married withholding tables. The 2018 federal WH calculations will be not require a new W4. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RitaB Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 56 minutes ago, Medlin Software said: The 2018 federal WH calculations will be not require a new W4. That seems like the most logical thing to me. Good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medlin Software, Dennis Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 8 minutes ago, RitaB said: That seems like the most logical thing to me. Good. (After regaining my composure after considering logic and/or thinking in politics.) Some source probably pointed out what a W4 change would entail, not only on employers, but on all the states without a separate W4, or with calculations based on the federal calculations and W4, so the wonks were somehow allowed to design calculations using the current W4. There will still be state WH ramifications, which may last several months after the IRS publishes n1036. In the past, when only the bracketology changed, the wonks had calculations published as soon as the bill was signed (if not at 12:01am the day the bill was scheduled to be signed). This time, it is likely taking longer because of running more test scenarios than usual, and since the politicians have all said we would see the change starting as soon as February. I doubt it took longer than a day to design the new calculations. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abby Normal Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 It seems to me that with the existing W4, and the personal allowance now at zero, choosing single 0 or single 9 will give you the same withholding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medlin Software, Dennis Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 5 minutes ago, Abby Normal said: It seems to me that with the existing W4, and the personal allowance now at zero, choosing single 0 or single 9 will give you the same withholding. I don't want to guess what sort of calculation the IRS will publish (see my worry below). The "problems" which may be avoided by not requiring a new W4 are no collateral damage to states which allow the use of the federal W4 information and/or do not have their own W4 form, and there is no way in you know what every employer wants every employee to have to submit a new W4. Many employees would not supply a new valid form in a timely manner, requiring the employer to use single (max withholding), which will cause nasty push back from the employee to the employer, when their net pay goes DOWN after listening to the talking heads saying their net pay would go UP. I could see the old "allowances" still having some affect, as there is a possible child credit. I worry the calculations will be structured for political benefit, to have the most see a net pay increase (such as "assuming" allowances are children triggering the child credit). I have already begun getting that type of question (from employee/owners, and from employers incorrectly seeking advice to give their employees). My reply is to contact their tax advisor for assistance with ensuring their withholding meets their personal desires, once the new calculations are available, and after a few weeks to let the tax folks suss out the results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edsel Posted January 11, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 We've come a long way from finding a Missouri member who knows something about withholding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BulldogTom Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 3 hours ago, Edsel said: We've come a long way from finding a Missouri member who knows something about withholding. That is my fault. You can ask Judy to give me a warning point for hijacking your thread. Sorry about that. Tom Modesto, CA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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