NT - No one's coming after your guns, paranoid rightwingers. Oh wait...

[Jack from Ohio]

What will the next posting be about: abortion?

See my point?

These issues don't need to be in this room.

Are you the moderator?

[Jack from Ohio]

Next will be a move to ban ownership of pressure cookers and canners, ball bearings, BBs, nails, screws and all scrap metal, by the American public to prevent what happened in Boston. Same logic applies.

[Lion EA]

Then evil Adam's household should not have been allowed weapons, according to your arguments. You're saying it is OK to limit weapons in the household of an evil person. Or, are you saying it is OK to limit or even eliminate evil people?

I don't see how a gun in a locked cabinet in the principal's office would've stopped Adam with two guns in his hands already out in firing position (the principal was in a meeting in a conference room or somewhere anyway).

And, Adam would've done much less damage, probably no deaths, with an exacto knife since he rushed no one, did not get close to anyone; the principal and counselor rushed Adam.

What about my neighbor who went to play at a friend's house and was shot and killed by the friend? His parents could not have saved their son by owning guns as they weren't there. And, the friend's parents actually contributed to their neighbor's death by owning guns. They found it impossible to save their neighbor's life by owning guns.

Another friend, large and fit and a long-time member of Israeli special forces with years of training could not save his own life with his gun at his fingertips when the thief burst through his door with gun already drawn.

I know lots of people out here in the country with guns in locked gun cabinets or in their bedside tables, but I do not know one who saved their own life or anyone else's life. I do know a few who died and had their guns stolen.

It just seems like a huge risk to have guns so freely out there for the use of the evil people when the "good" people are not saving any lives with their guns, just using them for hobbies or personal awards.

[Jack from Ohio]

Then evil Adam's household should not have been allowed weapons, according to your arguments. You're saying it is OK to limit weapons in the household of an evil person. Or, are you saying it is OK to limit or even eliminate evil people?

I don't see how a gun in a locked cabinet in the principal's office would've stopped Adam with two guns in his hands already out in firing position (the principal was in a meeting in a conference room or somewhere anyway).

And, Adam would've done much less damage, probably no deaths, with an exacto knife since he rushed no one, did not get close to anyone; the principal and counselor rushed Adam.

What about my neighbor who went to play at a friend's house and was shot and killed by the friend? His parents could not have saved their son by owning guns as they weren't there. And, the friend's parents actually contributed to their neighbor's death by owning guns. They found it impossible to save their neighbor's life by owning guns.

Another friend, large and fit and a long-time member of Israeli special forces with years of training could not save his own life with his gun at his fingertips when the thief burst through his door with gun already drawn.

I know lots of people out here in the country with guns in locked gun cabinets or in their bedside tables, but I do not know one who saved their own life or anyone else's life. I do know a few who died and had their guns stolen.

It just seems like a huge risk to have guns so freely out there for the use of the evil people when the "good" people are not saving any lives with their guns, just using them for hobbies or personal awards.

Hundreds of people defend themselves succesfully every week with legally owned guns. The stories RARELY make the liberal media.

[Jack from Ohio]

It just seems like a huge risk to have guns so freely out there for the use of the evil people when the "good" people are not saving any lives with their guns, just using them for hobbies or personal awards.

All the materials to make bombs like were used in Boston are readily available to people everywhere. Should we ban pressure cookers to prevent an event like that from happening again??? Same flawed logic.

We use our pressure canner to preserve food. That is a hobby and personal reward as well.

[kcjenkins]

[kcjenkins]

[ari]

An insane person stole guns and commited the atrocity. No guns caused any deaths unless operated by a PERSON! Get real!!

should we give murderers, criminals, and mentally dangerous people unlimited access to the most horriffic of weaponry...is that what you are suggesting?

[kcjenkins]

No, he is not, and you know it. I suggest you read Thomas Sowell's column, for an excellent discussion of this very point.

http://www.humanevents.com/2013/04/16/sowell-fact-free-crusades/

[ari]

Hundreds of people defend themselves succesfully every week with legally owned guns. The stories RARELY make the liberal media.

what kinds of guns are they using? I didn't know that there was legilslation to take away everyone's guns.

[jklcpa]

Rather than go further down these divergent paths and realize that there is almost no way that all of the guns will be taken away from our honest and law abiding citizens, could we possibly put our heads together and discuss ways to start getting the illegal, stolen, and unregistered firearms off the streets? What will ultimately be a deterrent or limiting factor to these violent crimes?

KC, the "#9 post" that was referred to is the posting number that appears in the righthand corner of each post. If you look at this post of mine, it is #36 in this thread. #9 was some picture with text that you posted on the previous page.

[kcjenkins]

OK, Judy, thanks for pointing that out to me, I'd never noticed those numbers. I was just counting my posts, not all the posts. As to your first point, which is a good one, the only way I know to reduce the criminals using guns is to make their use a TRUE aggravating circumstance in sentencing, and also reduce sharply the amount of plea barginning where the criminal carries a gun. And stricly enforce the law against being a felon in possesion. Right now, we see way too many cases where they drop that part of the charges, when they do catch them.

[Jack from Ohio]

should we give murderers, criminals, and mentally dangerous people unlimited access to the most horriffic of weaponry...is that what you are suggesting?

I am waiting for someone in the government to tell us how we are going to take guns out of the hands of criminals. Criminals, by their very nature, ignore all laws and do what they chose.

No law abiding citizen ever used a gun to commit a crime.

Guns are not the problem.

Heroin and Crack Cocaine have been illegal for years. Yet, anyone who wants them can still get them.

What makes you think that making certain guns illegal will stop the criminal from getting them"

Please review the definition of criminal before you talk about this subject any more.

[kcjenkins]

Well said, Jack.

Ari, how many bad guys do you think try to buy guns from licensed dealers, the retailers whom Congress wants to slap with further restrictions on instant verifications for gun sales? One-fourth? Ten percent? Five?

Try less than 1 percent. In fact, it’s less than half of 1 percent. Since 1998, there have been 590,070 attempts by convicts — guilty of both felonies and misdemeanors — to buy firearms from gun dealers who must check their criminal past on the FBI’s National Instant Criminal Background Check (NICS) system. That’s out a total of 167,488,942 background checks done on all gun sales for the same period.

Both sets of figures come straight from the FBI. Those 590,070 convicts who tried to buy a gun through legitimate means represent a mere .35 percent of all gun-buy attempts from licensed dealers over the past 14 years.

[Gail in Virginia]

There seem to be some people on this board very knowledgeable about gun laws, so I am hoping someone can explain this to me. One piece of legislation they mention are "straw man" sales. If I understood what they said, this makes it illegal to buy guns for someone who can't buy them for themselves. Why isn't that already illegal? What is going to be different if they do or do not pass legislation prohibiting this? I sincerely want to understand this.

[Catherine]

I am waiting for someone in the government to tell us how we are going to take guns out of the hands of criminals. Criminals, by their very nature, ignore all laws and do what they chose.

No law abiding citizen ever used a gun to commit a crime.

Guns are not the problem.

Heroin and Crack Cocaine have been illegal for years. Yet, anyone who wants them can still get them.

What makes you think that making certain guns illegal will stop the criminal from getting them"

Please review the definition of criminal before you talk about this subject any more.

Yay Jack!

For the poster who asked "what saves lives?" go here: http://gunssavelives.net/ you can browse by state, by gun type, and more.

[Catherine]

Then evil Adam's household should not have been allowed weapons, according to your arguments. You're saying it is OK to limit weapons in the household of an evil person. Or, are you saying it is OK to limit or even eliminate evil people?

I don't see how a gun in a locked cabinet in the principal's office would've stopped Adam with two guns in his hands already out in firing position (the principal was in a meeting in a conference room or somewhere anyway).

And, Adam would've done much less damage, probably no deaths, with an exacto knife since he rushed no one, did not get close to anyone; the principal and counselor rushed Adam.

What about my neighbor who went to play at a friend's house and was shot and killed by the friend? His parents could not have saved their son by owning guns as they weren't there. And, the friend's parents actually contributed to their neighbor's death by owning guns. They found it impossible to save their neighbor's life by owning guns.

Another friend, large and fit and a long-time member of Israeli special forces with years of training could not save his own life with his gun at his fingertips when the thief burst through his door with gun already drawn.

I know lots of people out here in the country with guns in locked gun cabinets or in their bedside tables, but I do not know one who saved their own life or anyone else's life. I do know a few who died and had their guns stolen.

It just seems like a huge risk to have guns so freely out there for the use of the evil people when the "good" people are not saving any lives with their guns, just using them for hobbies or personal awards.

1. No, dear. The problem goes back far deeper, to yet _another_ government action taken for humane reasons that (as so very often happens) ultimately had the opposite effect of what was intended. That problem was the state mental hospitals over-medicating people and holding people who had treatable mental illnesses under life sentences. Instead of putting those facilities under closer scrutiny and external (and public) review, they were shut down. Now, to get someone who is dangerous locked away, they must FIRST commit some crime or atrocity; they can no longer be shut away before they kill. It is a very complex problem with deep roots. The base of it, though, is still evil, the desire of evil to destroy, and the choice by persons to act on evil thoughts, desires, and impulses.

2. Knowing there was a shotgun or rifle available on-site might have stopped this atrocity before it started. Really - if YOU wanted to cause major mayhem, would you not purposely choose a place undefended? And if you knew your preferred target WAS defended, wouldn't you go elsewhere? Think of something else? The known existence of firearms in location X is itself a deterrent. That said, nothing ultimately will stop a madman (or "just" a bad man with a gun) except a good guy with a gun.

3. The exacto knife attack hurt a couple dozen people; at least one critically. Another knife attack in China a couple months ago killed over a dozen. Dead is dead, regardless of method.

4. Your neighbor's tragedy: tragic. Possibly avoidable had the family properly (1) kept their firearms locked away from children and (2) taught those same children that guns are NOT playthings. I was raised around guns; my grandfather made sure my brother and I knew how to handle them safely and that we knew how dangerous they could be and that they were NOT toys. I was perfectly safe around the shotguns (bird hunters, my dad and granddad both; pheasant cacciatore yum!) from a very early age. My brother as well. Other children -- depends on the kids. Both my girls learned to shoot air rifles first, then .22 rifle, then handguns once their hands were big enough and strong enough. Neither of them ever, for one second, was allowed to have unattended access to firearms, nor did either of them ever see them as toys. When their grandfather (on their dad's side) was a small boy, it was _standard_ practice for boys to get a single-shot .22 rifle for their 7th-8th-9th birthdays (depending on family finances and how big they were). Those rifles got taken to school every day, and on the way home they were to look for squirrels and rabbits for dinner. No school shootings; but there were (rare) instances of schoolboys protecting teachers.

5. Your last couple paragraphs get answered lumped together here. The genie cannot be put back in the bottle; Pandora's box cannot be closed; evil people with ill intent will NEVER license themselves or register firearms. We cannot keep drugs out of prisons guarded with armed guards 24/7. One can make a perfectly deadly weapon with plumbing parts, cooking utensils, and household items. It is incredibly dangerous to bury your head in the sand and wish it would all just go away. One never knows when the "hobby" firearm may be pulled out for personal defense. If an evil-doer breaks in with gun already drawn, then the law, followed by the law-abiding citizen, requiring HIS firearm to be in a locked case (rather than loaded and under his pillow), has itself endangered the good person. The law prohibiting the evildoer from owning a firearm already exists -- so how on earth could he possibly have one? He can't, right, so he doesn't, right? Can you see how ridiculous that assumption is?

A defensive firearm is the only thing that makes a 70-something grandma or a 20-something female student the equal of a 200 pound rapist or thug. Civilian ownership of firearms generally is the best deterrent to government's tendencies to tyranny. Once we PERMANENTLY solve the problems of rape, thuggery, evil, and tyranny, THEN we can talk about only using firearms for target competition. But not one second before.

[Catherine]

There seem to be some people on this board very knowledgeable about gun laws, so I am hoping someone can explain this to me. One piece of legislation they mention are "straw man" sales. If I understood what they said, this makes it illegal to buy guns for someone who can't buy them for themselves. Why isn't that already illegal? What is going to be different if they do or do not pass legislation prohibiting this? I sincerely want to understand this.

First, that is already illegal indeed. So making it "more" illegal by passing yet another law is senseless; how about trying to ENFORCE the law already on the books instead! (They're making the same noises about machine guns -- which are "automatic" firearms; multiple shots per trigger squeeze. Those sales have been prohibited since the 1930's. Anyone who wants to have a machine guns has incredible hoops to jump through and has to be a collector, have extensive investigations, has to have that re-done every year, has to pay for a very expensive annual federal license...)

Nothing would change (especially if they don't enforce the new law, too -- kind of like what they don't do about illegal aliens crossing the borders). It only scores political points for those who want to be able to boast about what THEY did to "stop" illegal gun sales.

Posturing, that's all.

[Lion EA]

So, good people owning guns will stop crime? When? It hasn't happened in 200 years. 2,000 years. Why didn't you stop the bomber or Adam or the rapists or the thugs? Why didn't the good people with guns? You couldn't and all your legally gun-carrying friends could not either. So why don't we get rid off all laws that have to do with weapons? Let anyone who wants to go steal your guns or anyone's guns, because guns are legal for everyone to have, regardless of mental or social deficiencies. Let everyone have a gun so the ones you think are good people can kill the ones you think are bad people without any legal repercussions. And, only good people will be left standing, right? Killers, but good people.

[kcjenkins]

Gail, it IS illeagl, just seldom enforced. And besides, Bureau of Justice Statistics report on “Firearms Use by Offenders” found that fewer than 1% of U.S. “crime guns” came from gun shows, with repeat offenders even less likely than first-timers to buy guns from any retail source. Gun shows are touted as a problem- but they’re not.

Legislators pushing more gun laws often will say they’re not looking to ban private sales; they just want background checks to occur. But how can a sale be a private sale if it must first be run through a federal agency? But more pressing than any other question, how would have or could have ANY of these measures stopped Sandy Hook? The gun used was grandfathered in and exempt from an “assault weapons” ban that had been in place in Connecticut since 1994, the mother was allowed to have it. More important, days before the killing, the shooter went to a Dick’s Sporting Goods to buy a rifle and was denied- the current system worked. So what did he do? He ent home, killed his mother and took and used her gun. Is anyone here naive enough to believe that, if she had not owned a gun, he would not have found another source?

[kcjenkins]

So, good people owning guns will stop crime? When? It hasn't happened in 200 years. 2,000 years. Why didn't you stop the bomber or Adam or the rapists or the thugs? Why didn't the good people with guns? You couldn't and all your legally gun-carrying friends could not either. So why don't we get rid off all laws that have to do with weapons? Let anyone who wants to go steal your guns or anyone's guns, because guns are legal for everyone to have, regardless of mental or social deficiencies. Let everyone have a gun so the ones you think are good people can kill the ones you think are bad people without any legal repercussions. And, only good people will be left standing, right? Killers, but good people.

Lion, good people with guns [remember, that includes most police] do stop many crimes, every day. Stop and think about it, please. Are you against police having guns? What stopped Adam WAS a policeman with a gun. Switzerland has the lowest crime rate, BECAUSE almost every adult male is legally required to possess a gun. One of the few nations with a higher per capita rate of gun ownership than the United States, Switzerland has virtually no gun crime.

And no one is suggesting that felons or the mentally ill should have guns. But we also recognize that they often do have them. And when they use them against others, it is seldom done in the presence of police. So giving the 'good guys' at least a fair chance to defend themselves is only fair, seems to me.

[Jack from Ohio]

So, good people owning guns will stop crime? When? It hasn't happened in 200 years. 2,000 years. Why didn't you stop the bomber or Adam or the rapists or the thugs? Why didn't the good people with guns? You couldn't and all your legally gun-carrying friends could not either. So why don't we get rid off all laws that have to do with weapons? Let anyone who wants to go steal your guns or anyone's guns, because guns are legal for everyone to have, regardless of mental or social deficiencies. Let everyone have a gun so the ones you think are good people can kill the ones you think are bad people without any legal repercussions. And, only good people will be left standing, right? Killers, but good people.

What will YOU do if armed criminals break into your house with intent of doing you or your family harm? Even if the police arrive in 2 minutes, you or your family could well be dead by then.

Maybe you could put up a gun free zone sign and tell the bad guys that they cannot have the guns in your house.

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun."

[Lion EA]

I have shot on a range and have decent aim, but know that I would not be able to get a lock-box off a shelf and unlocked and gun out before that robber killed me. I also know that if I were able to take his life instead of him taking mine, that I would NOT be a good person with a gun. I would be a killer and a bad person who had no right to judge his life less important than mine. And, if he wanted my goods rather than my life...well, no court would sentence him to death for stealing my costume jewelry, so why should I ?! And, if I'm at work in another town or on vacation in another state, my gun cannot protect my home, probably get stolen and added to the guns in the hands of criminals. As I say, if my well-trained and practiced Israeli special services friend with his gun at his fingertips could not save his own life from the robber with his gun already drawn, then I know I would not have any better luck. That robber had been in that store multiple times and knew it was not a gun-free zone but chose to rob it anyway; so not all robbers are smart enough to search out gun-free zones, that one got the diamonds and another gun, too.

You judged the parents harshly who had their neighbor child break into their lock-box and shoot their son; why don't you judge yourself just as harshly for keeping guns in your house? How can you be more sure than any other gun owner that your guns will never get used for bad reasons? Throughout my lifetime, I've had my apartments and homes broken into and jewelry and electronics and bicycles and money and other goods stolen when I have not been home. Certainly if I'd had any guns, they would've been stolen also. And, if I had any guns, they wouldn't have done me a bit of good as I was not in the same building as the burglar. If I thought a gun cured crime, I'd think about having one around; but having known of guns getting stolen, they seem to add to crime and not deter it. I've watched gun-owning friends decide not to replace guns after they were stolen so they wouldn't be giving any more guns to criminals. I've watched gun-owning friends sink into nothing resembling their former lives after their guns were taken and turned on their families &/or neighbors. I hope that doesn't happen to anyone else, but I know it will.

[joanmcq]

Thank you Lion. Because you've addressed the one question that the 'only criminals will have guns' crowd doesn't address: so where do the criminals get their guns? Why they're stolen. Stolen from who? From people that bought them legally. And the cycle continues.

[Jack from Ohio]

...I have shot on a range and have decent aim, but know that I would not be able to get a lock-box off a shelf and unlocked and gun out before that robber killed me. I also know that if I were able to take his life instead of him taking mine, that I would NOT be a good person with a gun. I would be a killer and a bad person who had no right to judge his life less important than mine. And, if he wanted my goods rather than my life...well, no court would sentence him to death for stealing my costume jewelry, so why should I ?! .

Not all bad guys that break into houses are only after items to steal... What will you do if they outwardly let you know they are going to rape, assult or kill you or a member of your family?...

My self-protection weapon is less than two feet from me when I sleep, and less than 5 feet from me when I am awake. There will be NO delay in my deployment of self-defense if needed. All three of my children are trained and adequate users of defensive weapons. Started teaching them when they were 6 years old. At least one of my daughters is CCW licensed and does so regularly.

She says... "Even though I am married, I have my boyfriend with me at all times. His nickname is "Shooter." His given name is Glock.