PTIN

[Karen Lee]

I sent in the form on the same day it became available and then the form was revised. My check has not been cashed. I just received a letter stating there was a problem and to go online and fix it however I never got the email with the password so I called today. On hold for about an hour before I got a person then she had me on hold several times during our conversation. I could not be "authenticated". Since I received my original PTIN I have moved and gotten married and reorganized from sole prop to S-Corp.

You would think that since the PTIN is substituted for your SSN on tax forms that there would be some sort of match up that is simple. What is the purpose of the SSN or PTIN on the form, if not to trace it back to me easily. Oh well, I don't plan on spending too much time thinking about it.

Was told to call back next week. Was also told that it wasn't an unusual problem.

Karen

[windmill]

I sent in the paper form and a check on Oct 7th...check has not cleared and no word from IRS>

[OldJack]

I sent in the paper form and a check on Oct 7th...check has not cleared and no word from IRS>

Maybe the IRS is waiting to see how the election turns out on Nov 2nd?

[JohnH]

I certainly am...

[joanmcq]

Sigh... an alternative is to choose another profession, I suppose. But I don't know of anything that doesn't entail some sort of restrictions, rules, guidelines, something whether growing food for consumers, manufacturing products, etc. I guess as long as we share the world with more than one other person, there will be restrictions of some kind or other.

Tax preparation has been about the ONLY profession that, in most of the country, required no licensing, no standards, no competency, no nothing. I am really, really sick of the whining that has been going on. We have access to peoples financial data for chrissakes! Errors on our part, caused by fraud or ignorance or just plain sloppiness can cause our clients untold problems. Yet we have not had even minimal standards to enter our profession???? I am just finishing up an audit of someone who went to one such preparer. They trusted the preparer to do their taxes correctly; in fact started having their taxes 'professionally' prepared because they started a business. Regulation may not be able to prevent this entirely, but if testing keeps just some of these quacks from entering or continuing in our field, we should be all for it.

A lot of you have been preparing taxes for a long time with no oversight. You may be competent. You may take continuing education, and care to do returns correctly and keep up with the law. In fact, your presence on this board speaks for that. But would YOU trust a preparer that has been 'doing this for 35 years' that has not kept up with tax law to do your return? Would you trust a doctor that hadn't had to do CPE and keep up with advances in medical knowledge? I agree licensing will not keep all the bad apples out of the profession. I get a quarterly bulletin from my state Board of Accountancy that reports all of the sanctioned CPAs that have been criminal or incompetent, their penalties and offenses. Licensing does not in and of itself make for integrity or competence. But it helps. The threat of losing one's livlihood can do a lot to keep one honest, if nothing else.

$64.25 is not a lot of money. I pay a lot more to have a business license, a CPA license, and E&O insurance. Not to mention CPE. And I'm paying that in addition to those other fees. If you complainers are know your stuff, passing a test should not be difficult. The incompetents and fraudsters leaving our profession should increase our business enough to cover that cost. I think a lot of you are just using this as an excuse to bitch about the government, and would bitch no matter what the circumstances. Get over it.

[TAXBILLY]

Got TWO letters from the IRS today reminding me to re apply. Both letters were folded differently.

taxbilly

[mcb39]

Tax preparation has been about the ONLY profession that, in most of the country, required no licensing, no standards, no competency, no nothing. I am really, really sick of the whining that has been going on. We have access to peoples financial data for chrissakes! Errors on our part, caused by fraud or ignorance or just plain sloppiness can cause our clients untold problems. Yet we have not had even minimal standards to enter our profession???? I am just finishing up an audit of someone who went to one such preparer. They trusted the preparer to do their taxes correctly; in fact started having their taxes 'professionally' prepared because they started a business. Regulation may not be able to prevent this entirely, but if testing keeps just some of these quacks from entering or continuing in our field, we should be all for it.

A lot of you have been preparing taxes for a long time with no oversight. You may be competent. You may take continuing education, and care to do returns correctly and keep up with the law. In fact, your presence on this board speaks for that. But would YOU trust a preparer that has been 'doing this for 35 years' that has not kept up with tax law to do your return? Would you trust a doctor that hadn't had to do CPE and keep up with advances in medical knowledge? I agree licensing will not keep all the bad apples out of the profession. I get a quarterly bulletin from my state Board of Accountancy that reports all of the sanctioned CPAs that have been criminal or incompetent, their penalties and offenses. Licensing does not in and of itself make for integrity or competence. But it helps. The threat of losing one's livlihood can do a lot to keep one honest, if nothing else.

$64.25 is not a lot of money. I pay a lot more to have a business license, a CPA license, and E&O insurance. Not to mention CPE. And I'm paying that in addition to those other fees. If you complainers are know your stuff, passing a test should not be difficult. The incompetents and fraudsters leaving our profession should increase our business enough to cover that cost. I think a lot of you are just using this as an excuse to bitch about the government, and would bitch no matter what the circumstances. Get over it.

Excellent post, Joan. It may be an inconvenience now, but we have all known it was coming and I, for one, will be pleased to be able to tell my clients that I have passed the competnecy requirements. (If that is the case). If it isn't the case, it is time to retire.

[OldJack]

$64.25 is not a lot of money. I pay a lot more to have a business license, a CPA license, and E&O insurance. Not to mention CPE. And I'm paying that in addition to those other fees. If you complainers are know your stuff, passing a test should not be difficult. The incompetents and fraudsters leaving our profession should increase our business enough to cover that cost. I think a lot of you are just using this as an excuse to bitch about the government, and would bitch no matter what the circumstances. Get over it.

Yes, I am a CPA and have also paid all those fees and everyone should have to do the same. But, you are missing the point of what has happened. Its "control stupid"! In the past it has been state license and now it is federal license and state license. State license did not dictate our relationship between the client and the IRS. Its now the federal government controlling our profession rather than the state. You might as well drop your CPA license and save the cost.

[Jack from Ohio]

I see NOTHING in the actions of the IRS to confirm that their intent is to make sure that paid tax return preparers are properly knowledgable and trained.

All I see is a way to get money from us. If you disagree, look at the back pedaling on the CPE credits for 2011, and the delaying of mandatory testing till 2013.

Why not require that anyone who is paid to prepare a tax return be an EA, CPA, or an Attorney? Again, do those tags after a person's name mean that they are properly knowledgable, trained and practice ethics in their tax business?

[TAXBILLY]

So I'm filling out the W-12 and line 12 says: "Enter the business website address."

What the heck does that mean?

taxbilly

[jainen]

>>"Enter the business website address." What the heck does that mean?<<

Obviously you are stuck on last century's methods such as actually meeting your clients and using paper. Why, I'll bet you even TALK into your telephone, you old dinosaur!

[mcb39]

So I'm filling out the W-12 and line 12 says: "Enter the business website address."

What the heck does that mean?

taxbilly

I don't have one either.

[Catherine]

<snip>

I think a lot of you are just using this as an excuse to bitch about the government, and would bitch no matter what the circumstances. Get over it.

Joan, I am reminded of a cartoon in the New Yorker some time ago, two men in business suits at a desk. One says, "These new regulations will fundamentally alter the way we get around them."

There will ALWAYS be crooks and charlatans in every profession. They need to be found and prosecuted, and mainly can be under existing law with existing tools. Rather than make us "good folks" jump through extra hoops that make us no better and take away our time from improving our skills, it would make more sense (to my mind) to spend the time and money on an education campaign so people know what to look for and what to avoid in a return preparer. I had one lady years ago who told me her prior preparer told _her_ that she'd be a MORE risk of an audit if he signed the return as a preparer, so he recommended to her that she sign it as "self-prepared". It was full of major errors and skirted outright fraud. She was a retired bus driver with all the financial acumen of your standard jelly donut - there was no way for her to understand what he'd done, and that it was wrong. But she _could_ have understood a warning that anyone saying something like that was a crook.

It's not the money. It's the time, aggravation, and frustration of "how many MORE hoops are we supposed to jump through -- after all, WE'RE not the problem!"

A bank teller has nearly as much access to financial information as we do. Should they also be regulated, licensed, registered, and charged for the privilege?

"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy." -- Ernest Benn

[Gail in Virginia]

A bank teller has nearly as much access to financial information as we do. Should they also be regulated, licensed, registered, and charged for the privilege?

A bank teller is bonded, however,and is employed by a bank which is extremely regulated and licensed, at least in theory. Someone pays for that bank teller's bond, and for the regulatory compliance that the bank goes through. Very few professions are completely unregulated and unlicensed any more. Even tradesmen such as HVAC mechanics, plumbers, electricians, etc. are now require to have continuing education in the state of Virginia in addition to a license showing that at one time they passed a test proving their competence to practice their chosen profession. Why shouldn't tax preparers have at least the same professional standards as your average barber (who may also be passing out tax advice....) The major difference I see is that this is being regulated on a federal level rather than a state level.

[Jack from Ohio]

A bank teller is bonded, however,and is employed by a bank which is extremely regulated and licensed, at least in theory. Someone pays for that bank teller's bond, and for the regulatory compliance that the bank goes through. Very few professions are completely unregulated and unlicensed any more. Even tradesmen such as HVAC mechanics, plumbers, electricians, etc. are now require to have continuing education in the state of Virginia in addition to a license showing that at one time they passed a test proving their competence to practice their chosen profession. Why shouldn't tax preparers have at least the same professional standards as your average barber (who may also be passing out tax advice....) The major difference I see is that this is being regulated on a federal level rather than a state level.

I see NOTHING in the actions of the IRS to confirm that their intent is to make sure that paid tax return preparers are properly knowledgable and trained.

All I see is a way to get money from us. If you disagree, look at the back pedaling on the CPE credits for 2011, and the delaying of mandatory testing till 2013.

Why not require that anyone who is paid to prepare a tax return be an EA, CPA, or an Attorney? Again, do those tags after a person's name mean that they are properly knowledgable, trained and practice ethics in their tax business?

[joanmcq]

Let's see Jack....the fact that there IS a test, and there IS a CPE requirement (even if not assessed immediately; a fact of which is more to the current preparers, ie, people with a PTIN already having to step up to the new standards immediately rather than at least having a grace period). With the whining about this requirement (much less than a CPA or EA is subject to), could you see the brouhaha that would result if every preparer was required to be an EA or CPA or attorney?

Catherine, there HAS been an education campaign regarding bad preparers. But to be educated about a preparer, you have to 1. read, 2. be interested in the subject, and 3. care.

Look how hard it has been to shut down the 'tax relief' OIC mills? Roni Deutsch is still on TV, as are most of the rest of them, promising stuff they can't deliver, if they even try to.

Oregon & California have been the only states to regulate preparers for years. A few more like NY & MD recently passed legislation. But the tax forms being prepared are not just state forms. Why shouldn't the federal government regulate who is allowed to prepare federal taxes?

As a CPA, I am still regulated by the state of CA. The AICPA lobbying did manage to get us excepted. The only thing that changes for me (and you, OldJack) is paying a $64.25 fee, which I see as the price to get the currently unlicensed people up to a slight par with me.

[Don in Upstate NY]

...

Oregon & California have been the only states to regulate preparers for years. A few more like NY & MD recently passed legislation. But the tax forms being prepared are not just state forms. Why shouldn't the federal government regulate who is allowed to prepare federal taxes?

...

This will be NY's second season to regulate tax preparers. The ONLY requirement is the ability to come up with the $100 fee. At least on the federal level there is a tentative schedule for testing.

[OldJack]

The only thing that changes for me (and you, OldJack) is paying a $64.25 fee, which I see as the price to get the currently unlicensed people up to a slight par with me.

Joan, I was not whining about the fee. I just want to be independent and represent my clients without being considered a licensed agent for the IRS.

If the client claims a deduction in a gray area of the tax law and it has been disallowed by the IRS who do you represent?

Do all the new requirements not bother you?

[joanmcq]

OldJack; I am independent and I have always been under Circular 230. I don't see where there will be a change for me at all; I do audit representation, and I represent my clients. If a prospective client has no case, I don't take them on or just advise them to pay the bill and instruct them on tax law. This is what I've always done. If it is truly a grey area, I can take the case to appeals and argue there. I have just won some very grey area cases.

I don't tend to be an 'aggressive' preparer. If there is truly a gray area, I can instruct the client as to the issues and let them decide if they want to be more aggressive or not, and I can also instruct them as to the possible consequences. When someone wants to take a position I am not comfortable with, I will not prepare the return.

The change will be that all the formerly unregulated preparers will also come under Circular 230 and be forced to the same standards I have had to operate under. I see it as leveling the playing field somewhat. I am no more or less regulated than I was before. Just $64.25 poorer.

[Jack from Ohio]

Do you really think that all those "unregulated" preparers who currently do not sign the returns they prepare will even think about complying with the new requirements? The new requirements only provide more hoops for us who choose to be informed, honest and ethical preparers to jump through.

Please tell me how the new requirements will have ANY effect on those preparers who choose to remain invisible?? And if the testing is un-monitored, how will the testing have ANY validity? I'm just sayin...

[joanmcq]

It's not going to catch the 'invisible' ones, but create greater penalties for those 'invisible' preparers. And they do get caught. Someone who gets busted for a fraudulent 'self-prepared' return will turn pretty quickly on their preparer. I've seen it happen.

What this will do is put the signing tax services under Circular 230 and its penalties and restrictions. And force them (if they want to keep their businesses) to become competent or get out of the business. The audit I spoke of earlier WAS a signed return, from a preparer that had an office (not home-based). There are a lot of businesses out there.

Current unlicensed preparers on this board: How much CPE do you get a year? Do you take an update class each year? How many hours is it?

[mcb39]

It's not going to catch the 'invisible' ones, but create greater penalties for those 'invisible' preparers. And they do get caught. Someone who gets busted for a fraudulent 'self-prepared' return will turn pretty quickly on their preparer. I've seen it happen.

What this will do is put the signing tax services under Circular 230 and its penalties and restrictions. And force them (if they want to keep their businesses) to become competent or get out of the business. The audit I spoke of earlier WAS a signed return, from a preparer that had an office (not home-based). There are a lot of businesses out there.

Current unlicensed preparers on this board: How much CPE do you get a year? Do you take an update class each year? How many hours is it?

I take a two day class every year which generates 14 hours of CPE credits which are certified. Have attended this class starting in 1999 and all years since. In fact, class is week after next. I also attempt to attend Webinars which are offered by ATX and the IRS. These will also certify credits if you want. In addition, I subscribe to and USE Quickfinder Individual, Business and All States. I also use the US Master Tax Guide and the Wisconsin Tax Guide as well as the textbooks that are included in the schooling. In addition, I use Pub 17 as well as a working relationship with the local IRS service office. I am consistent with reading the questions and answers on this board and use the "Search" or question option for issues that I need additional help with. I don't have a problem with being licensed by the IRS. Of course, nobody likes to pay a fee every year, but if it will help keep down some of the preparer error that I see cross my desk, I will not complain (too much)! I have held a PTIN since the first year they came out, which, of course, means nothing other than that I have tried to keep current with the times. The classes I attend are not inexpensive and not always interesting, but I think they are necessary to what I do. I hope this answers your question from my perspective as to what some of us unlicensed preparers do to comply.

[OldJack]

Incompetent and unlicensed tax preparers were not my problem until the IRS decided to license/control all preparers and have penalties for everything. The problem appears to be with the franchised tax services so why does the IRS cause small professional tax preparers so much headache?

[Catherine]

<snip>

Look how hard it has been to shut down the 'tax relief' OIC mills? Roni Deutsch is still on TV, as are most of the rest of them, promising stuff they can't deliver, if they even try to.

<snip>

And all the new regulations will STILL not affect the shyster who told the retired woman it was safer for her to sign the return as "self-prepared". She can't prove he prepared it even if she could find him. Nor do the regulations provide for better, faster ways to remove the Roni Deutsch's of the world from hawking their questionable wares.

So how, exactly, is all the new hoo-hah going to help anyone? It's just a pain for us, the ones who follow the rules. Enforce the existing rules before instituting new ones. The new rules are just a way of claiming to do something while actually doing nothing to improve the situation for honorable tax preparers or tax payers.

[Jack from Ohio]

Plageurized from mcb39 because it almost exactly matches my efforts at staying informed, compitent and ethical in my practice....

I take a two day class every year which generates 14 hours of CPE credits which are certified. Have attended this class starting in 2002 and all years since. In fact, class is Dec. 1 & 2. Two more classes, one Dec. 15 & 16 we call it "Gear-up" for corporate returns that would generate 4 CPE credits and a whole lot of current information. Second Gear-Up is Dec. 7 & 8 for 1040 returns that also would generate 4 CPE credits. That makes a total of 22 CPE credits this calendar year.

I am a member of the local Professional Tax Preparers organization and attend all 9 montly meetings to keep abreast of new developments and share information with and from other members. I also attempt to attend Webinars which are offered by ATX and the IRS. These will also certify credits if you want. In addition, I subscribe to and USE Quickfinder Individual, Business and All States. I also use the US Master Tax Guide and the Wisconsin Tax Guide as well as the textbooks that are included in the schooling. In addition, I use Pub 17 as well as a working relationship with the local IRS and State of Ohio service office. I am consistent with reading the questions and answers on this board and use the "Search" or question option for issues that I need additional help with.

I don't have a problem with being licensed by the IRS. In fact, before the end of the year, I may take the EA exam. It IS monitored, and does have meaning. Of course, nobody likes to pay a fee every year, but if it will help keep down some of the preparer error that I see cross my desk, I will not complain (too much)! I have held a PTIN since the first year they came out, which, of course, means nothing other than that I have tried to keep current with the times. The classes I attend are not inexpensive and not always interesting, but I think they are necessary to what I do. I hope this answers your question from my perspective as to what some of us unlicensed preparers do to comply.

Now does THAT answer the question about some of the currently "unlicensed" preparers that inhabit this board? Currently there are very few of the crooked and unethical preparers that ever get questioned or caught. If there are not hundreds of thousands of dollars involved, those complaints get ignored.

In my opinion, this is just a "Paper Tiger" that the IRS is building to hide the fact that they will extract more than $50 Million from those preparers that choose to be honest.