Top 20 most used forms by your practice

[rchinchilla]

I need your help to compile a list of 10 forms from the poll above that you use more than others. Not necessarily the importance, since they are all important, but which do you find yourself using a lot during tax season.

Your responses are greatly appreciated,

Roger

[taxxcpa]

I need your help to compile a list of 10 forms from the poll above that you use more than others. Not necessarily the importance, since they are all important, but which do you find yourself using a lot during tax season.

Your responses are greatly appreciated,

Roger

1040,1120,1120S,1065, Sch A, B, C,D, E. Forms 4562, 2016

[rchinchilla]

Thank you taxxcpa. It seems as if the Poll was not available before you answered the questions. I have since edited my initial post.

Thank you.

Roger

[jainen]

>>which do you find yourself using a lot<<

I don't even recognize what some of those are, so how do I know if I use them a lot? Can't you put their names in the poll? Please?

[rchinchilla]

There you go.

[jainen]

>>There you go.<<

Thanks. Now I don't feel so bad about not recognizing them--that's a mighty odd assortment of candidates for "which do you find yourself using a lot." Related to your other project, I suppose?

[rchinchilla]

Yeah the "other" project. We have some tax pros willing to answer questions only about certain forms. This will help me choose which forms aside from the usual forms we will dedicate resources (match making tax pros with software developers). Thank you for your input Jainen.

[jainen]

>>Thank you for your input Jainen<<

You're very welcome. Are you really going to use data from here to direct software development? This thread doesn't even rise to the level of anecdotal evidence. I hope you have a more robust methodology for some of your other decisions.

[David1980]

I voted my 10 in the poll.

Sch D - Very common

Sch E - Very common

Sch F - Not common for me, but in farm areas probably common

Sch H - Not too common

Sch J - Done one once, but probably more common in farm/fishing areas.

Sch R - I've never met anyone who's ever been able to use this.

1116 - Not too common since you can avoid filing it most of the time

2106 - Very commonly filled out, (much less often useful since the 2% haircut - but the clients like seeing it.)

2120 - I've never used

4136 - Somewhat common

8396 - I've never used one, had a lot of people ask but it ends up they had normal home mortgage interest and never received a mortgage credit certificate from government unit or agency under a qualified mortgage credit certificate program. A lot of people that ask were under the assumption this was an alternative to taking it on Schedule A and that anyone with a home could use it.

8615 - Somewhat common

8824 - Relatively common

8835 - I've never been able to use it.

8846 - Never used it.

8882 - Never used it.

9465 - Somewhat common

8908 - Never used it. Have used the 5695 not to be confused with the 8908.

6198 - Common. Should be more common. Probably one of the most commonly missed forms for people with investments in partnerships or s-corporations. (I always check prior year return for new clients.) Not required if there really are no amounts not at risk but most of the time there are if it's an investment thing for the taxpayer.

8888 - Not common. I have seen it (ab)used by some in an attempt to do a free "RAC" by depositing preparer fees to preparer bank. Form is not for that...

Some of those would differ depending on who your target customer is and where you live (I obviously don't do too many business returns past a C or farmers.) Schedule R though, I'd love to see someone actually manage to get this credit. Are there any stats on the annual number of each form filed with the IRS anywhere?

[rchinchilla]

@Jainen - the information provided by REAL LIFE tax preparers is better than developing software AND later modifying it to fit. This information when filtered properly can be prove very useful.

@David1980 - Thank you for your detailed description. 8888 as RAC is crazy. Has the IRS said anything about this?

[David1980]

@Jainen - the information provided by REAL LIFE tax preparers is better than developing software AND later modifying it to fit. This information when filtered properly can be prove very useful.

@David1980 - Thank you for your detailed description. 8888 as RAC is crazy. Has the IRS said anything about this?

The 8888 form instructions specifically state "You cannot request a deposit of your refund to an account that is not in your name (such as your tax preparer’s own account)." I think the thought when they created the form was people would use it for putting a portion of their refund into a brokers account or something.

[kcjenkins]

Yes, it's intended to allow you to split your refund into multiple accounts, such as sending some to savings and some to checking, of to send some to husband's account and some to wife's account, etc. NOT to allow the tax preparer, or anyone else, to get paid out of the refund. Of course, that will not stop some unethical people from trying to use it that way. As David said, "I have seen it (ab)used by some in an attempt to do a free "RAC" by depositing preparer fees to preparer bank."

[RoyDaleOne]

Invoice is my most commonly used form, I use the invoice for every client.

[rchinchilla]

I love the wit on these boards! Invoice just happens to be my favorite and most used form as well.

[RoyDaleOne]

I noticed Form 1040 Page 1 and 2, Schedule A, B, C, and Form 4868 are missing.

This is why programmers should NOT be in charge of this project. You don't know what you are doing, as far as the needs, desires of a tax professional.

By the way I have the same complaint with CCH.

It just so happens, I have done a lot of programming, so that my programs will work the way I want, need and like. And, yes I have sold the programs commercially.

The cost of the income tax preparation programs is not the issue ($600 to $5,000), anyone doing tax work for living should buy the best program, that they like. Functionality, ease of use, completeness, accuracy, speed, efficiency are the issues.

[David1980]

I noticed Form 1040 Page 1 and 2, Schedule A, B, C, and Form 4868 are missing.

My assumption (which could be wrong) was they already had decided on certain forms and that we were only voting on a list of additional forms they might add. Basically helping to prioritize the "what to add next" list.

If I'm wrong and they don't have a 1040 or some other basic forms that would be pretty useless.

[rchinchilla]

David1980 is right. We have already worked on the forms you have indicated. What were are trying to decide is which of the 20 listed above should be developed during the next round which is January-February.

[Don in Upstate NY]

What were are trying to decide is which of the 20 listed above should be developed during the next round which is January-February.

One on the weak points in many tax programs and/or estimators is the AMT. Have a go at the 6251.

[GeneInAlabama]

You mean your program doesn't already have the forms you listed? What about state forms? I don't believe states have even been mentioned so far. Are you developing a real tax program, or just something to play with?

[Don in Upstate NY]

You mean your program doesn't already have the forms you listed? What about state forms? I don't believe states have even been mentioned so far. Are you developing a real tax program, or just something to play with?

Give 'em a break. They're getting their feet wet by trying out a few forms at a time, hopefully learning as they go. Which is a good idea! Remember ...

Never start vast projects with half-vast ideas.

[rchinchilla]

GeneInAlabama - we are STARTING.

Don in Upstate NY is right. We have to start somewhere. We can't have ALL FORMS with ALL STATES with ALL BANKS with ALL EVERYTHING over night. Its a work in progress and hopefully soon you guys will be able to use it in your practice.

Thanks Don.

[jainen]

>>its a work in progress and hopefully soon you guys will be able to use it<<

This is another example of how your programming is limited by your lack of tax office experience. Switching software is a HUGE decision for accountants. Generally we can't phase it in, like using a second program for certain rare forms or the state returns. We can hardly even evaluate an incomplete program.

Take a look at Bulldog Tom's thread today on "2008 Program issues." This year we have an alternative deduction for some but not all taxes. Would you say that ATX got this right according to your standards? Are you going to have the same feature? The calculation is correct either way, but either way could likewise miss something for a few taxpayers. Tom is stalled a bit, and this is just a new tax year with software he already knows. Imagine trying to understand an entirely new program!

Here's a problem that concerns us all -- depreciation. Most users are going to need some way to convert their prior returns without entering everything from scratch. Professional software typically does NOT follow the IRS depreciation tables, so how are you going to assure us of an accurate continuation of existing depreciation schedules?

By the way, RoyDaleOne showed "wit" but he was also entirely serious. The price of most tax returns is based on the forms used, but it's always tough deciding about forms like Schedule B which might be short or long or have extra troubles. Apparently one of your goals is to avoid "multiple software applications" so how do you plan to integrate this function that affects every single return? Other than laughing it off, I mean.

[David1980]

Here's a problem that concerns us all -- depreciation. Most users are going to need some way to convert their prior returns without entering everything from scratch. Professional software typically does NOT follow the IRS depreciation tables, so how are you going to assure us of an accurate continuation of existing depreciation schedules?

The professional software can't even get that one right all the time. And if there's any AMT numbers to carry forward, good luck...

[Mel in Hawaii]

I wrote a really long post and decided that it was too negative, so I deleted it and started over.

rchinchilla, I do want to say something here, but want to temper it with the fact that I used to work at ATX (since way back in 92) and have seen the nightmare that is tax software development right up first hand (I was there during the card table days). I am also a 'competitor' of yours, perse, in the idea that I too have been working on a tax program to call my own but you won't see anything published on the web to this point as it is not complete enough. I bowed out of releasing a program this year as if you don't have a complete package, it is just not going to be good enough.

First, I don't see how PHP can benefit the tax program with the exception that it would be web-enabled. This is fine for a product marketed at the home user wanting to complete their own return, but what advantage does it give a tax preparer? PHP can be a wonderful tool, but have you thought about the HUGE workload it would put on your servers? Let's just think that if you became a minor player in the tax field, and had 10,000 users (2000 shops with an average of 5 employees each). Remember that you aren't just talking about 10,000 customers coming to your website, you are talking about constant interaction with and trying to keep track of 10,000 tax returns and fully calculating the returns at the same time can really consume some major hardware. Think about it, when filing deadlines come up, having ALL of those users online at the same time is a very DEFINATE reality, not just a possibility. Efile servers can get overloaded from all the returns just being submitted by preparers, imagine having to calculate, edit, and create the efile too. The weeks before filing deadlines are VERY critical to tax preparers, if anything in the chain fails (their ISP, your bandwidth, your server, etc) there are going to be some really pissed off customers with quite a few who are also practicing lawyers. Scaling on desktop software is not an issue as each customer brings their own CPU with them.

Second, tax software as open source sounds nice. But how are you going to find enough dedicated QUALITY programmers to do all those forms in the few short weeks you have between the time the IRS releases them and when the tax pros will be hounding you for them? Even the first week of January is too late for some people. The Christmas holidays are not a time that you want to be relying on a volunteer staff.

Third, be careful of promising more than you can deliver. You are still developing forms, yet you claim that your calculations are checked against the high-end programs. I surely hope you are talking about last year's product. Tax pros are very good at nit picking your claims as most have many years of tearing apart IRS technobabble under their belts. Remember what I said about the tax pro/Lawyers, there are more out there than you want to run into. Sure, they may be great customers if you treat them right, but they can also cause you major hassles so be careful what you claim.

And of course, remember about the privacy and ownership of the data. In a PHP system, I assume (and hopefully incorrectly) that you are thinking about plunking that data down into a database on your server. Better not be... Whoa nellie, that's a multi-branching biggie that I won't really touch here... But the data needs to be stored somewhere. Do you think that the tax professionals will want you hanging onto that data for them for next year? That data is VERY valuable to them as it represents an investment of time inputting it. If you go belly up, they still want that data around to be 'imported' into their next package. It better be on their own hard drives in a form that can be imported.

Before you say anything, I am sure that you will likely see that I am a 'Moderator', but I don't censor/delete any posts unless you are posting porn. I volunteered to help aleviate that problem a while ago, but due to KC and Eric's hard work, I haven't had to. I had nothing to do with your other posts.

[TAXBILLY]

Well said Mel. A lot of good thoughts to ponder.

taxbilly