Can a father of the child freeze the mother of a childs tax return?

[The Kidd]

This is the tax return I am working on.

- My client; Mr. Smith, is filing HOH. because his girl friend does not work and has two children.

- His girl friend had the children out of wedlock with another man (Mr. Roberts)

- The children are 2 and 4.

There was no divorce decree made up, because they were never married.

Anyhow Mr. Roberts is saying he has right because the Mother of the child is not filing a tax return. And he is now saying he talked to his tax preparer (Jackson Hewitt), and that preparer is saying they can place a freeze on my clients tax return.

Is that true? because I never seen/heard that. I have seen people send in a letter and mail in the tax return. and it open a case, but never heard they can place a freeze.

Side note: I know my client will win this case. Because the law clearly states it go to the tie breaker rule, but If the spouse is living with someone and that someone pays over 50% and etc etc. then that someone can claim the children before the other spouse can.

[Jack from Ohio]

<<<Facepalm>>>

He is dreaming or high. You should know that the IRS process will not allow such a thing.

[Mr. Pencil]

the law clearly states it go to the tie breaker rule, but If the spouse is living with someone and that someone pays over 50% and etc etc. then that someone can claim the children before the other spouse can.

Please give a citation or reference link for that law.

[The Kidd]

<<<Facepalm>>>

He is dreaming or high. You should know that the IRS process will not allow such a thing.

hey hey LOL. I had to ask. There is crazy things done each year and some things I had no clue about. LOL

thanks and I face palmed as well.

[Mr. Pencil]

Is that true? because I never seen/heard that. I have seen people send in a letter and mail in the tax return. and it open a case, but never heard they can place a freeze.

It is true in the sense that the first return filed will be processed, and any later return showing the children's SSNs will be rejected and have to paper file. Both taxpayers will get IRS letters inviting them to support their claims. Presumably your client will prevail on the issue of dependency, but is not eligible to file Head of Household with non-related dependents.

[The Kidd]

Please give a citation or reference link for that law.

I'm trying to find the law.

but it states that since she cannot file her tax return, and is claimed by someone else, then that someone else can claim the children. As long as that someone/and the mother, provide over 50% and a few other things.

I will find it and post it on here. but don't go and think I am ignoring you. I am just trying to find exactly where it says it.

[Jack from Ohio]

I'm trying to find the law.

but it states that since she cannot file her tax return, and is claimed by someone else, then that someone else can claim the children. As long as that someone/and the mother, provide over 50% and a few other things.

I will find it and post it on here. but don't go and think I am ignoring you. I am just trying to find exactly where it says it.

You need to study up on the requirements for Head of Household as compared to claiming children as dependents. This is basic stuff.

http://www.irs.gov/publications/p501/index.html

[Mr. Pencil]

since she cannot file her tax return, and is claimed by someone else, then that someone else can claim the children.... I am just trying to find exactly where it says it.

I'll save you the trouble. The rule you are remembering is on page 17 of the Instructions for Form 1040 (and in Pub 501). It clarifies that the children are not qualifying children of any taxpayer because (in your case) the mother is not required to file a tax return. That allows the unrelated boyfriend to claim them as qualifying relatives for dependent exemptions, but it still does not allow Head of Household.

By the way, I don't think you should be discussing this with the father, unless your client has signed a disclosure form. Meanwhile, don't promise your client a quick refund if the father files first.

[The Kidd]

I'll save you the trouble. The rule you are remembering is on page 17 of the Instructions for Form 1040 (and in Pub 501). It clarifies that the children are not qualifying children of any taxpayer because (in your case) the mother is not required to file a tax return. That allows the unrelated boyfriend to claim them as qualifying relatives for dependent exemptions, but it still does not allow Head of Household.

By the way, I don't think you should be discussing this with the father, unless your client has signed a disclosure form. Meanwhile, don't promise your client a quick refund if the father files first.

You never talk to the father. Disclosure or not. but that is against the firm to work with clients who are divorced, UNLESS they sign a letter saying it is OK for you to work with them both.

And if you want me to work against my client, I will not. that is great way to lose a client.

Also I cannot find anything that says he cannot file head of household.

for further detail. I'm not going to go back and forth with here is this statement and what not. I am sure the father of the child will be fighting this and proof will have to be sent in. and then the IRS will say who is in the right. So when that day comes, would you like me to bump this thread in saying who is right or wrong?

[The Kidd]

You need to study up on the requirements for Head of Household as compared to claiming children as dependents. This is basic stuff.

http://www.irs.gov/publications/p501/index.html

basic stuff or not. but you should know that everything is not a clean cut case. I have done my research and talk with the IRS to find out some things. (as I'm sure you have to do so as well)

so don't take this the wrong way. but get off of my junk dude. you been on me ever since I been here day one with always trying to be-little me and bash me and report me. I'm not even saying I am better then you or been doing this longer then you.

if you keep it up, I'll start just ignoring you. I'm not a child who goes around acting all high and mighty and reporting people. I'm not like that at all.

So either we can be cool from here forward or you can go on the ignore list. the choice is yours? But I rather work together as friends to helping one another out.

Namaste'

[Mr. Pencil]

I cannot find anything that says he cannot file head of household.

Jack and I have referred you to Pub 501 and the Instructions for Form 1040. See IRC Section 2-2(b ) if you need a legal citation. Not a word has changed since 2005. It sounds like your firm has some unhappy history with separated parents, so ask around the office. And don't shoot the messenger.

Rules for Head of Household are on page 13 of the Instructions. They say "do not include... Any person who is your dependent only because he or she lived with you for all of 2013." This is exactly your client's situation--since his girlfriend and the children are not actually related to him, he can only claim them as dependents under the rule for "any other person... who lived with you all year."

[Jack from Ohio]

basic stuff or not. but you should know that everything is not a clean cut case. I have done my research and talk with the IRS to find out some things. (as I'm sure you have to do so as well)

so don't take this the wrong way. but get off of my junk dude. you been on me ever since I been here day one with always trying to be-little me and bash me and report me. I'm not even saying I am better then you or been doing this longer then you.

if you keep it up, I'll start just ignoring you. I'm not a child who goes around acting all high and mighty and reporting people. I'm not like that at all.

So either we can be cool from here forward or you can go on the ignore list. the choice is yours? But I rather work together as friends to helping one another out.

Namaste'

If you choose to ignore me I will not be offended. Newbies should not be so quick to dis more experienced tax preparers. Mr. Pencil and I both gave you concrete facts, yet you resist.

Your choice.

Your very first post indicated you wanted to do something total illegal. Then you went on to try to defend what you said. All newbie symptoms. If you are that thin skinned, you are in for a tough road as a tax preparer.

[Mr. Pencil]

basic stuff or not. but you should know that everything is not a clean cut case.

That brings up another thing that has bothered me from the original post. This kind of question is basic for the taxpayer, too. Usually it gets cleared up the first year, So is this the first year? What happened in 2012? Specifically, when did the parents separate?

[Pacun]

No head of house hold for your client. If they lived with him all year and he provided more than 50% of the support, he can even claim the mother, but HH status.

By the way, when entering the dependents info, what relationship has you chosen? You know they are not son or daughter, so what have you chosen?

[The Kidd]

The relationship is other.

The mother is claimed as well. because she does not work. Which is the reason he can claim them as long as he claims the mother.

Side note: I did a search for it from the irs. But i can't find what I read. I found other sites that state it. (sadly places like turbo tax).

I'm not worried about it at all. And i will bump this thread when everything hits the fan of the father trying to fight it. Therefore I'm not going to keep searching for it.

[Mr. Pencil]

I'm not worried about it at all. And i will bump this thread when everything hits the fan

You expect your position to be challenged, but you are not worried even though you are not able to support it? And you get upset when an expert gives you the advice you asked for.

It sounds to me like you are still confusing dependent exemption with filing status. I think you misunderstood what you read, or it may have been something from before the law changed. Or it may have been wrong, even if it was somewhere on the IRS website. [Yesterday I reported something that the IRS itself challenged in court even though it was from their own publication .]

Please tell us how the mother filed in 2012, and when she separated from the father. Then we will tell you how to audit-proof this return. Because based on what you have told us so far, I think the professional at Jackson Hewitt is correct.

[Cathy]

Mashburn,

I think it's great that you are trying to get your client the maximum refund, however, none of the people you spoke of
qualify your client for Head of Household. The whole issue with the proper filing status has gotten to the point of being ridiculous, so I can certainly see how confusing it can be. Just remember, there's a good probability your client will be very angry when he has to repay the tax savings on Single versus Head of Household. My suggestion is to take a break from it for at least a few hours, then follow the Head of Household instructions paying very close attention to the footnotes if you are using an IRS publication. Also, please never take the word of an IRS employee on the toll free line as their word isn't anything you can use to defend your client against using the wrong filing status.

Take care,
Cathy

[The Kidd]

You expect your position to be challenged, but you are not worried even though you are not able to support it? And you get upset when an expert gives you the advice you asked for.

It sounds to me like you are still confusing dependent exemption with filing status. I think you misunderstood what you read, or it may have been something from before the law changed. Or it may have been wrong, even if it was somewhere on the IRS website. [Yesterday I reported something that the IRS itself challenged in court even though it was from their own publication .]

Please tell us how the mother filed in 2012, and when she separated from the father. Then we will tell you how to audit-proof this return. Because based on what you have told us so far, I think the professional at Jackson Hewitt is correct.

LOL, do not think I am just going to sit back with the IRS and say, "oh I read it somewhere". I will find it and read through many things. But as far as here goes, I'm not worried about proving it to y'all ( no offense to anyone). I just know the IRS is who I deal with the fight for my client and get him his amount, and not y'all (again no offense).

glad you asked that question. Because I knew she was claimed with another guy that she was with. (the girl moves around a lot with men apparently LOL). anyhow I just looked at it and it was HOH as well. the only thing that is different is they only claimed one child and the father of the child claimed the other child.

the reason why he one child for each parent. is because the father filed his return first but could only find one social. (so this has been always a battle of, "I put mine in first. and then the IRS then sends letters out asking for proof from each party.). anyhow last years no one fought it.

The return for the girl friend and the client I am doing now, I have never done their return before.

lastly, just because it was done on the tax return in the past. Does not mean that is enough of reason for me to do it.

anyhow, when I get to that bridge, I will get to that bridge. but I rather focus on getting tax returns done, then wonder/stress on something that may not even happen.

[Mr. Pencil]

when I get to that bridge, I will get to that bridge. but I rather focus on getting tax returns done,

Do whatever you want, friend. In my opinion you are at that bridge now, because there is no difference between getting tax returns done and determining tax liability. Your latest post confirms in my mind that you do not know and have no way of knowing that the mother and children lived with your client for 365 days in 2013 or that your client provided more than half of their support. I strongly recommend you do not sign the return--but do whatever you want, friend.

[jklcpa]

I think you are confusing the rules for claiming exemptions with the rules for determining filing status.

The rules for exemptions would allow you to claim your girlfriend and her children AS QUALIFYING RELATIVES, if they lived with the taxpayer the entire year. The IRS has different rules for who is a qualifying RELATIVE and who is a qualifying CHILD. You don't have to believe any of us, those rules and definitions are clearly laid out in the instructions for Form 1040 and Pub 501. I'd suggest that you print out those pages from the Form 1040 instruction guide and carefully work through those requirements one at a time answering Yes or No and see where that leads.

As Mr Pencil, Pacun and others have already told you, your client should be filing as SINGLE and not HOH because none of the dependents you have mentioned are a QUALIFYING CHILD BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT HIS BLOOD RELATIVES.

If we seem like we are jumping on you, it's because we are trying to stop you from making an error by preparing this return as HOH. If you won't take our advice, please talk to someone more experienced in your firm that can guide you through this.

[kcjenkins]

glad you asked that question. Because I knew she was claimed with another guy that she was with. (the girl moves around a lot with men apparently LOL). anyhow I just looked at it and it was HOH as well. the only thing that is different is they only claimed one child and the father of the child claimed the other child.

the reason why the one child for each parent. is because the father filed his return first but could only find one social. (so this has been always a battle of, "I put mine in first. and then the IRS then sends letters out asking for proof from each party.). anyhow last years no one fought it.

The return for the girl friend and the client I am doing now, I have never done their return before.

lastly, just because it was done on the tax return in the past. Does not mean that is enough of reason for me to do it.

anyhow, when I get to that bridge, I will get to that bridge. but I rather focus on getting tax returns done, then wonder/stress on something that may not even happen.

You have a real problem, IMHO, claiming these people as dependants, given what you just told us. If she was claimed by someone else, last year, the odds are really high that she did not move in with the new guy on 1/1/13, in which case she and the kids do not meet the very strict requirements for non-related dependants.

Also, are you clear now that even if he could claim them as dependants, he can not claim HOH ?

[The Kidd]

You have a real problem, IMHO, claiming these people as dependants, given what you just told us. If she was claimed by someone else, last year, the odds are really high that she did not move in with the new guy on 1/1/13, in which case she and the kids do not meet the very strict requirements for non-related dependants.

Also, are you clear now that even if he could claim them as dependants, he can not claim HOH ?

ok let me explain more in detail detail

in 2012 she stayed at some random guys house for 11 months. (as far as I have been told by her, that guy meet all the criteria to claim them and hoh)

while still in 2012 she met my client and moved in with him. She moved the children in with him as well. he meets everything in claiming her. and because he claims her, he then can claim the children. (she does not have to file because she had zero income.).

I did just a quick search the other day and this is from turbo tax. https://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tools/tax-tips/Family/12-Tricky-Tax-Dependent-Dilemmas/INF12074.html

I could care less about turbo tax. but it states the same thing as I am. it does not say HOH, but I know what I read in the past and I also know how her tax return were done last year.

I have done my homework with looking at the residence, providing proof (mailing address, license, and etc). I am not the IRS to say, "no you cannot". we prepare, we are not the say so. If I see that it cannot be done, then I do not do it. but if I feel it is right and best for the client, the yes I will do it.

Lastly, I will state the exact same thing as I have stated a few times. I will gladly bump this thread when it is decided to be right or wrong. Because I am sure the Father will be fighting it. and also I am not going to go searching for laws just to prove it to y'all. even what some have provided has problems. 1. it does not say 100% it cannot happen as HOH. and 2. just cause something is said in pub *** does not mean it is the way it is. <<<<----- IRS states at times that things are open to interpretation. And in those cases you prove your case and win.

I hope you understand my point of not wanting to waste a couple hours on this just to prove it to y'all. Because 1. the Father may not fight or the IRS says all is good. and 2. y'all are not the one who is going to say this is wrong and not. so no point on wasting my time. 3. It has already been submitted, there is nothing I can do. But I have considered what has been said for reasons to do this and that and etc.

Lastly, I am not afraid to be wrong. it happens sometimes, if someone on here has never been wrong on simple to complicated things, then they are a liar flat out. I am not afraid to come in and say I am wrong, but I will wait until I hear from the IRS.

[Mr. Pencil]

just cause something is said in pub *** does not mean it is the way it is. <<<<

Very true. And that's why I cited the actual tax code itself, which DOES in fact mean it is the way it is. You also believe, "it does not say 100% it cannot happen as HOH," but I already quoted the actual language that DOES say so.

Well, I don't know what your game is, but since you have finally stated that they lived together all year, I will fulfill my promise by telling you how to audit-proof this return. First, unless your client is married use filing status of Single. Do not claim any of the four tax benefits that require a qualifying child, including Head of Household, EIC, CTC, and Form 2441.

Second, recognize that "random guy" has already declared under penalty of perjury that the mother did NOT join your client during 2012. Obviously that was done with the mother's agreement; you say "they" only claimed one child. So she is being inconsistent. Months after leaving her old boyfriend, she helped him file a fraudulent return with her own SSN! You have minimal proof of residence, so boost it with at least a couple of items dated in 2012.

Third, Complete the worksheet on page 16 of Pub 501 for EACH dependent. Make a good faith effort to include support or gifts from the father, welfare, and any other resource for the family. For housing costs, the worksheet allows only 1/4 of fair rental value regardless of actual costs such as mortgage or utilities. That's what it takes.

Of course, I'm only teasing you. Just like last year this is an EIC fraud return, which of course only works if they can file HoH. So like I said before, do whatever you want, friend!

[The Kidd]

Very true. And that's why I cited the actual tax code itself, which DOES in fact mean it is the way it is. You also believe, "it does not say 100% it cannot happen as HOH," but I already quoted the actual language that DOES say so.

Well, I don't know what your game is, but since you have finally stated that they lived together all year, I will fulfill my promise by telling you how to audit-proof this return. First, unless your client is married use filing status of Single. Do not claim any of the four tax benefits that require a qualifying child, including Head of Household, EIC, CTC, and Form 2441.

Second, recognize that "random guy" has already declared under penalty of perjury that the mother did NOT join your client during 2012. Obviously that was done with the mother's agreement; you say "they" only claimed one child. So she is being inconsistent. Months after leaving her old boyfriend, she helped him file a fraudulent return with her own SSN! You have minimal proof of residence, so boost it with at least a couple of items dated in 2012.

Third, Complete the worksheet on page 16 of Pub 501 for EACH dependent. Make a good faith effort to include support or gifts from the father, welfare, and any other resource for the family. For housing costs, the worksheet allows only 1/4 of fair rental value regardless of actual costs such as mortgage or utilities. That's what it takes.

Thanks. your a good guy and I really want to see if I am right or wrong.

I will do what it takes to protect myself and firm as you stated and more. but I still am very anxious to see if this right or wrong. LOL and the said thing is this will be a waiting game and not something I'll find out next week.

and I really don't want anymore of having to prove right or wrong from us. I want to learn and help others. So I am going to quit with feeling like I have to prove this to y'all. BUT.......... I am curious on how you would have handled this case. I know it is simple and etc, but there is reasons to do things imo.

so here it is.

Mr. John Smith is a "new" client. he receives a W2 and 1098 mortgage.

He also has provided proof that his Girl friend has lived with him for all of 2013.

And the Girl Friend has two children that are hers.

- the childerns father lives at home with his mother and goes to school and is her dependant.

The children have lived with the Mr. John Smith for the entire year of 2013. there is age under 18 years old.

Mr. smith also provides over 50% for the children and his Girl friend.

The children and girl friend are residents to Mr. Smith house. (providing License, insurance, mail and etc.)

The girl friend made zero and has nothing to report.

in 2012. Mr. john smith and the Girl friend lived together for 3 months.

Mr. john smith filed single and had a w2.

the girl friend tax return had no tax return. but was claimed on another guys tax return as HOH. and also had one child claimed on there.

The girl friend is 26 years old. Mr. Smith is 26 years old.

if you need more information, please ask.

and thanks. I feel this way can help me in getting better understanding then earliers performance.

[SaraEA]

The Kidd, I don't understand why you asked for advice and then refuse to listen to it. Many experienced pros on this board tried to help you out by explaining the rules and even citing the Code, but you are arguing with them. Omit the extraneous facts about last year, etc. and get to the meat of the issue: To file as HOH, you must have a qualifying child. A qualifying child must be a blood relative. Pub 501 states only the following relationships qualify:

• Your son, daughter, stepchild, foster child [legally placed by an agency], or a descendant (for example, your grandchild) of any of them, or

• Your brother, sister, half brother, half sister, stepbrother, stepsister, or a descendant (for example, your niece or nephew) of any of them.

These children are not related by blood and do not qualify the taxpayer for HOH. What don't you understand?

I don't know how long you have been in the business, but those of us with years under our belts know the IRS looks unkindly at male HOHs. A few years back they audited ALL of them. Since you already filed the return, re-enter the data using Single in a practice return, then call the client and tell him how much of his refund he will have to pay back so he doesn't spend it before the IRS letter comes.