Medlin Software, Dennis Posted April 12, 2023 Report Share Posted April 12, 2023 What is old is not always wrong... Yet another in the long line of self caused problems had me using the advanced options to reinstall Windows (was unable to boot properly). The Windows reinstall was fine, BUT one of the things it does "for you" is to remove everything and everything you have installed into one of the Program Files folders. (These are the folders Windows suggests apps install to, which many developers blindly follow. In my case, my own software does NOT do this, as we install into a folder of our own making in the root.) While this can help some, who may have an issue caused by faulty outside software, it means a real time loss reinstalling software after an OS error. In my case, it was a bad key press while editing the registry, it was not something an update did! So for me, and those who ask me, I am even more sticking with the old way of not letting Windows manage locations, and my apps are going into a folder of my own making, such as "Outside Apps", rather than one of the program file folders Windows defaults to. This will better isolate the OS from the non OS Apps, in case of a repair, since MS has elected to wipe things with no backup made during the windows repair process. The other huge advantage is for backups, as one can backup their outside apps folder (not for the apps, but for their configuration and data!), rather than blindly backing up the program file folders, which contain a large amount of Windows apps which do not normally need to be backed up. Granted, I am an outlier, as I test and use my backups at least a couple times of year, not only for safety, but for changing computers (main and a spare). I backup on 4 different local devices (in case one fails), and send copies to two different secure online locations I directly control (which means two servers/machines, plus auto backups of each server which resides on other servers). Thank goodness my backup software (Cobian Reflector) allows multiple backup lists, so my usual is restoring from my special hand crafted list of ini, cfg, and data files for my day to day stuff. Funny thing, I had no backup of my Cobian backup sets, since I tend to make new sets after each restore/computer change. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacun Posted April 12, 2023 Report Share Posted April 12, 2023 I guess you don't trust your 4 backups since you are installing in different folders instead of the ones suggested by Windows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medlin Software, Dennis Posted April 13, 2023 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2023 Just now, Pacun said: I guess you don't trust your 4 backups since you are installing in different folders instead of the ones suggested by Windows. My backups were good (I did not count, but I have at least 4 sources, with multiple options withing each source, so likely 50+ backups I could try). The issue is the Windows "repair", which should have just repaired Windows, DELETES any not installed with Windows apps in the program file folders. This is a BAD thing. Why? Any problems in those folders can be handled via console mode, rather than just wiping them out. If MS was concerned a non windows app was the issue, they could just remove/clean the STARTUP items, so no non win app starts automatically... Windows suggests what is best for MS, not what is best for the computer user. It is the reason I have been installing my app in a root folder, as there are things MS does which was wiping out my customer's data, which my customers expected me to fix. System restore was one of the problems, and now I see Windows recover is as well (had not looked since it was already solved for my app). It is nearing the time I will have to force customers to make backups, as their skill level is dropping as computers are now appliances, and it seems many assume all software is sending data to the "cloud" for them with no interaction. ("I paid for the software, it should protect me from me") I am just old, or old school, I guess. Reinstalling or recovering the OS should NOT delete apps. Period. My fault, as it has been at least a decade since I had to repair from a fat finger error. I borked the registry, and could not boot. I was up and running in 30 minutes with major items, and the rest have been resolved within a day. My backup machine would have been fine to use as well. My point is, unless apps are installed in a non MS controlled folder (NOT program file folders), those folders need to be backed up. This goes against the old advice of backing up data, and reinstalling software. Why? Because there is DATA (mostly configuration, INI type stuff, but not always) in those folders which MS wipes on recover!!! These are the two folders ("suggested for app installation by MS") which are wiped when using the Windows recovery tool in the advanced options. Nothing criminal, but there are better options for the user, but it must be MS decided to just wipe them, so Windows will boot, then they can say "we fixed Windows, you are on your own for the apps we deleted "for" you". Instead of allowing installation into the above folders, I am using a folder I created. In addition to the better recovery from non boot, I can backup the other apps folder in total, without backing up all the things Windows re installs on its own. Noe, if I have to reinstall Windows, I can leave existing data, with zero data loss via the recovery. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abby Normal Posted April 13, 2023 Report Share Posted April 13, 2023 Disk images are your friend. You should set up a task to image your disk every night, and keep as many images as you can store. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medlin Software, Dennis Posted April 13, 2023 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2023 I used to use zip drives, tapes (and glued many back in their spool, the light and the two little holes near the end failed when the drive was dusty), CD/DVD/Floppy, etc. I only tried imaging a few times, IIRC, is may have been Peter Norton's offering (pre Symmantec). I have done low level file recovery. For me, I rarely have to "repair". My issues are like most, changing computers, or trying to undo/reverse human error (such as getting a file back I deleted or changed). I cannot think of any time I want to restore an entire image. If I were deploying setups, I would use images for certain. I cannot afford (too lazy) to redo more than an hour's work (sometimes 15 minutes) so I backup every hour during my work hours. I also have a backup computer always ready to go, kept within a week current with my data. Likely an outlier as most do not, cannot, or don't think about such a system. For me, I am too smart/experienced/lazy (and stupidly have had more than one self caused issue over the decades) to rely only on a local daily backup. Don't backup the OS. System must be able to restore just one file, just one folder, or all of my data, quickly and easily. Must be able to have multiple backups, such as weekly, daily, and hourly. Also must allow manual trigger. I prefer 5 incremental, and then a full, for each group. Must be able to backup locally, as well as to send the result via SFTP. Must not use any secret or proprietary encoding, so something like 7 zip is free, reliable, and reasonably secure. I use my own encoding on the zip files for added security (since I have that ability). I locally backup onto a portable hard drive, SD, and USB. Also onto my spare computer. I send those results to two different secure servers, which are also backed up (imaged) regularly, and they have in place auto dups which come online if the main server fail. In this case, my backups were fine, and my backup computer was fine. Had I installed my apps in a non OS controlled location, I would have been back within minutes. The problem is, I had to dig through many files (or manually recreate) some of my "preferences" for those apps, and reinstall them, which is annoying to me. Plus, if I had installed outside of the OS folders, there would have been NO ISSUE at all with letting the OS rebuild/recover, other than the few minutes for that process. I really don't like the OS wiping files outside of those it needs/creates. I understand, MS is trying to get the computer functioning and the user our of their support loop ASAP, but the means is not good - I would say it is destructive and costly to the user. It is the same as a well known fix it chain who has a policy of making some sort of proprietary backup/image on DVD's, wiping the computer, and letting their customer figure out how to restore. I have to deal with that company weekly (at least) as my customers contact me asking how to undo what they PAID someone else to "fix". I should have known better, since this is related/similar to the original system restore issues created decades ago (why my app installs in a custom folder - with zero option for the user to select another location). But the result is fine, it is making me rework my backup/recover system again, and it will be improved yet again. The point of the post was to suggest others consider taking more control over their computer, and not use either of the program file folders again. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Posted April 13, 2023 Report Share Posted April 13, 2023 What does one do, then, about programs that do not give one any option about where to store the data? I used to have folders outside of the Windows defaults for all my programs - for similar reasons to yours. But with Windows... 7, maybe? most programs stopped allowing the option to choose the installation folder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medlin Software, Dennis Posted April 13, 2023 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2023 Unless (and it is rare), the software has no selection of installation, you can overtype or select a different folder other than the default. One exception is if you are installing something which is already installed, the dev may allow the setup to just "go" to the same location with no option to change. What I am suggesting is to change the program file section to something else. In this case, I had to select "custom" install to see/alter the installation location. Since the app is 32 bit, it defaults to the x86 program file folder. I replaced the section marked above the yellow with my own folder (Other Apps). I am suggesting nothing be in the program file folders other than what the OS puts there when the OS is installed. This ISOLATES the apps from the OS better, which can pay off for cases where the OS is stuck, such as a failed upgrade, or user error, and the OS needs to be reinstalled or recovered. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Posted April 14, 2023 Report Share Posted April 14, 2023 I will look for that custom install dodge with any new app installations. Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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