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If we as preparers don't value our own work enough to charge a sufficient fee our clients won't value it either. I have never wanted to be the cheapest - I want to be the best.

A US Navy cruiser anchored in Mississippi for a week's shore leave. The first evening, the ship's Captain received the following note from the wife of a very wealthy and influential plantation owner: "Dear Captain, Thursday will be my daughter Melinda's Debutante Ball. I would like... you to send four well-mannered, handsome, unmarried officers in their formal dress uniforms to attend the dance." "They should arrive promptly at 8:00 PM prepared for an evening of polite Southern conversation. They should be excellent dancers, as they will be the escorts of lovely refined young ladies. One last point: "No Jews please." Sending a written message by his own yeoman, the captain replied: "Madam, thank you for your invitation. In order to present the widest possible knowledge base for polite conversation, I am sending four of my best and most prized officers." "One is a lieutenant commander, and a graduate of Annapolis with an additional Masters degree from MIT in fluid technologies and ship design." "The second is a Lieutenant, one of our helicopter pilots, and a graduate of Northwestern University in Chicago , with a BS in Aeronautical Engineering. His Masters Degree and PhD. In Aeronautical and Mechanical Engineering are from Texas Tech University and he is also an astronaut candidate." "The third officer is also a lieutenant, with degrees in both computer systems and information technology from SMU and he is awaiting notification on his Doctoral Dissertation from Cal Tech." "Finally, the fourth officer, also a lieutenant commander, is our ship's surgeon, with an undergraduate degree from the University of Georgia and his medical degree from the University of North Carolina . We are very proud of him, as he is also a senior Fellow in Trauma Surgery at Bethesda ." Upon receiving this letter, Melinda's mother was quite excited and looked forward to Thursday with pleasure. Her daughter would be escorted by four handsome naval officers without peer (and the other women in her social circle would be insanely jealous). At precisely 8:00 PM on Thursday, Melinda's mother heard a polite rap at the door which she opened to find, in full dress uniform, four very handsome, smiling Black officers. Her mouth fell open, but pulling herself together, she stammered, "There must be some mistake." "No, Madam," said the first officer. "Captain Goldberg never makes mistakes."

-- How to live forever A man is walking along a beach when he comes across a lamp partially buried in the sand. He picks up the lamp and gives it a rub. A genie appears and tells him he has been granted one wish. The man thinks for a moment and says, "I want to live forever." "Sorry," said the genie, "I'm not allowed to grant eternal life." "OK, then, I want to die after the government balances the budget and eliminates the debt. "You crafty little bastard," said the genie.

Funny thing, I did not see Jack's joke as racist, I saw it as the opposite, as the winners were the black officers with the impressive resumes.

My tax season letter always includes a disclaimer that NO new work can begin until prior year balances are paid in full. Yes, there are folks who pay late (same ones every year) but -- at least my clients -- always pay. What I generally do is charge a hefty fee for my forms and schedules -- then give the client a "discount" if they're nice, pay quickly, have all the info or respond quickly, don't drive me nuts... whatever. Those whom I need to pester get a much smaller discount -- if any. Built in PITA pricing. I never charge someone "what they paid last year" although I do look at last year's bill, last year's notes, last year's time lag to payment, etc. when figuring this year's price break. I send out statements to those who owe -- most will pay up promptly then, usually with an apology for forgetting. The few that don't get the point with the "no new work" line. I have had to fire people; I usually try to wait until after their bill is paid (AND cleared!) - but have on occasion figured it was better to write off the money owed than to be stuck with an albatross. But you're right; it's a tough line to draw and to hold.

that's when you have to step up and take charge of your practice.....you can't let yourself get walked on but in this case I was only referring to the posting that said she felt so bad because they had little money. People make choices that hurt them the least or make them feel better. I feel good when I do a return for someone that needs help and can't afford it or doesn't know they need help. Doesn't mean that I want a whole line up of freebies but as you said.... I bet you felt great telling the h/w with a spouse on active duty that the return was free [what did it cost you, a 1/2 hour]. Of course you don't want 100 of them but a few here and there can't really hurt and can make you feel really great. I gave away a bunch of freebies to people who lost their home in Sandy..... never even crossed my mind to charge for the pain in the *ss carrybacks, when they are living in trailers or motels etc. After 9/11 I must have done 25 free returns when parents came in with their murdered kids records or visa-versa. You can't fully respond to a post in 3-4 lines and MsTabby seems to take this personally [there is always more to the story than what is posted here] but if you feel so bad because someone needs the money and can't meet your fees then you do the return. Unless you will then feel so bad for not earning a fee, then you don't do the return. I just can't see doing 90% then bitching about the rest or regretting getting involved. And many times those freebies bring you in great clients. Every uniformed service person I don't charge due to a "line of duty injury" usually gets me 3-5 of his buddies as clients. My rep isn't that I do work for free, my rep is that I get it and feel for people in distress. That unwed mother or father that loses his job....eventually they get work, need a more complex return, and recommend you to everyone they speak with.

Actually, you really can't say what is 'fair fee' until you have done a return for the client, in my experience. You are looking at the finished product, but we all know that while two returns may LOOK identical, but often the work that went into them was quite different. One client may be well organized, give you his stuff early and complete, and be both polite and respectful of your advice, and pay promptly. The other is generally disorganized, late getting his data to you, you have to contact him three times to get everything you need, he ignores your advice then gripes when, as a result, things don't work out right. And once he finally gets you the last thing needed, he expects you to finish it the next day, then wants to pay you when.....[gets refund, next payday, in installments, or other]. SHOULD THEY BOTH BE CHARGED THE SAME? THE RETURNS LOOK ALMOST IDENTICAL, AFTER ALL.

Those surveys are all based on totally bogus suppositions. If you look at my "normal" billing rates for 1040-A-MA it would be $205. But who has a 1040 and Sch A without a Sch B? Or a D? Who can buy a house without sufficient resources to have other accounts? What about non-schedule complications to the 1040 like educator expenses or student loans with worksheets to determine how much is allowed? Plus, it makes no mention of all the other factors that go into pricing. If, for example, that 1040-A-MA return came in early, with every bit of info needed, I would probably discount the price - possibly as much as $50. If, on the other hand, I had to send a half-dozen emails asking for the 3Q property tax, or had to hound them for the closing statements to calculate the refi points amortization, I might hit them with a "accounting time" fee on top of the $205 -- which could easily hit $100 (depending on how much of a PITA they were to deal with). Here's one for you -- picked up a family for 2012, brother to an existing client. He was charged $1075 for 2011. I would have charged $385 for the very same return. And every single client who has come to me from (insert name of favorite big box tax store) has found me to be substantially less expensive even though I think I charge very fairly if a bit skewed towards my benefit. So I believe the "averages" they report in the article to be low -- or at the very least unable to be compared to real life situations. Nonsense, all of it. If you think your prices are fair to you, you're fine. If your clients think you're too high, they'll leave. That's fine, too -- it's called feedback. A free market runs on it -- what an un-coerced buyer is willing to pay an un-coerced seller for something they need that the seller is willing to sell. Milton Friedman talked about it a lot and there are plenty of videos on YouTube of him doing so.

Believe it or not....I don't have a problem with slow payers. I guess I'm just a world-class nag. But...what aggravates me the most...the PITA who thinks their tax return is the most important legal document ever written! I just fired one: Wife is attorney (the PITA); husband retired Return is really no big deal...except for one specific to NYC form (20 years...300 returns/year....she is the only one that ever needed the form) She gives me way too much backup...and I have to go thru every page. This summer...for her 2011 return....3 lbs of paper and a 16 page letter of instructions.(This is besides K-1s, 1099s etc.........) She is always condescending. I didn't read the letter...but looked to the last page to see how long it was....and there was yet again...another condescending remark at the end. I used to charge her $400. The CPA before me charged about $1500 (I don't remember exactly) Of course she reads thru the entire return...and will point out typos....such as "and" instead of "&" for names of charities. If she just gave me "the papers she got in the mail" and a list of charities....it would be a quick return. But, instead, it becomes hours because of reading thru her 3 lbs of notes. So...I told her "my new software" didn't support that special NYC form. I know...it was like throwing $400 away....but that condescending attitude....ugh.....I just couldn't take it.

On another tax forum I frequent, someone posted a couple years ago about a royal PITA client -- business, always calling with problems, driving him nuts for the $1250/year fee charged. He had followed the advice given about doubling fees every year. $2500 -- paid without blinking but still a PITA who wouldn't go away. $5000 -- ditto. $10000 -- and suddenly they're his favorite client as he's finally being paid what their interruptions are worth to him! Frankly, if they'd bailed at the $5K point -- that's *still* a win if someone is really driving you nuts. Life is too short to be driven crazy but nutcase clients. And yes, it's hard to fire them but once you do you invariably think, "I should have done this YEARS ago!" (Ask me how I know, lol.)

Actually, the only 'offensive' part to me was the "southern" stereotype. I'm used to it, but as a southerner myself, it still irks me a little. I grew up in the south while segregation was still in place, starting college in 1960 yet I have had black friends not only visit but stay in my home overnight, my kids [now in their 40's] had black friends without even thinking about it, one even dated a black girl for a while during his college days. Today's south is a totally different place, indeed, most southern towns are less racially segregated than northern cities today. But, hey, let's not get worked up about a joke, friends. Even a 'dated' one.

While passionately making love, the couple was interrupted by the phone ringing. The girl answered it, returning to bed a few seconds later. "Who was that?", her companion asked. "My husband," she replied. "He wanted to tell me he'll be out late because he's playing poker with you and some of the other fellows."

I thought the joke placed the pompous mom as the racist...

Another non-racist joke: Back in the days of segregation, a white man walked into church and saw a black man. "You had better get out of here. Don't you know this is a church for whites only?" The black man replied, :"I'm just here because I was hired to clean the floor." "Well, I guess that's all right then--but don't let me catch you praying here!"

Thanks, I contacted ATX and Sandy remoted in and solved the problem. The new schema (whatever that is) did not like that on a short name for a rental property I had 03 801. It seems if there is a number, no space followed by another number is permitted. The client had 2 properties on the same street so I was distinguishing by house number. Changed to letter F801 (for Fourth Street 801) and now accepted. I couldn't put 4th as it was a number and was limited to 8 characters. Not as hard as I thought and now the cryptic explanation means something but I didn't speak the language very well and needed a translator!

A few years ago I sent my usual tax season letter out in early January. Most folks got a line "fees going up, you should expect to see an increase of 3-5%." Some half dozen PITA clients got the same letter but the figure was 30%. All but one of those folks left (here's your hat, what's your hurry, and don't stumble on the way out). Should have done it *years* earlier.

And if you are smart, instead of doubling the fees, just raise them 25 %, odds are high you will lose less than 10%. Or better yet, raise them individually, more for the PITA clients. That way, you either get rid of a lot of pain, or you get paid enough to not mind the pain.

Someone made this statement a long time ago on this site while discussing fees... "If I double my rates, loose 50% of my clients, I earn the same amount of money doing half as much work." There is a VERY SOLID business principal in that statement. I have SERIOUSLY considered this course of action. The ones that would stay, appreciate my professionalism.

I was talking to the co-owner of a modest sized independent copy machine/printer dealership several months ago, he was charged $625 for a 1040 with Schedule A, one Schedule E Rental and one 1120 S K-1 by a mid sized local CPA firm. My fee for the same return would have $ 375.

That's not *quite* it. You charge what the time and effort is worth to you; where you feel fairly compensated for your trouble. If the market sees that as low, they will flock to you (as MsTabbyKat is finding) and you will then raise your prices. OTOH, if you lose clients, you will either lower your prices to entice new clients (and keep old ones), or decide to sell the business/close shop/retire/turn to hand-knotting hammocks to sale on Etsy. What a truly free market (which we have NOT had in this country or much of the rest of the world, for decades at the very least) will quickly establish is WHERE that level is, at this particular time, in this particular location. "A smelly mess in the barnyard is valuable fertilizer in the south 40." (RA Heinlein). Then one may decide (a) to purchase the good or service offered, ( b ) to offer that good or service oneself, ( c) or to refrain from either purchase or offer and do something else with one's time, effort, and money. There will always be someone who sees opportunity in moving items from the barnyard to the fields, and finds an investment (kerchief, clothespin) that makes the effort worth their while.

I figured Uncle Milty was enough of a stretch for some. And Adam Smith's work is taken out of context too much; you need to read his "Theory of Moral Sentiments" before "The Wealth of Nations" can be properly understood. (And yes, I know that "Uncle Milty" referred to Milton Berle. I was being facetious.)

I guess I have a different attitude.....yes time is money but once in a while you have to do what feels right. in the original post the taxpayers were in dire straights and need the money, so Just do the return for them. No different than any other volunteer work. I am a vollie medic and donate my time so what's wrong with donating a bit of professional time too. Lawyers call it pro bono and some larger firms demand it of their staff. Maybe I could bill out every minute or not be at my desk on a sunday in September but I think I sleep better knowing that I have helped someone. As for getting rid of pain in the *ss callers why go to such elaborate extremes, just say, hey you caught me at a bad time and I will have to get back to you. No one will ever fault you for being a busy professional. Or tell them this is getting to detailed so you need to make an appointment.. most won't want to do that.

My fees are lower, but I work out of my home, without any overhead. Everything is based on that specific client....so, someone with an A with no expenses other than state tax & charity won't pay much more than the standard deduction. Someone with a long list of every paperclip purchased pays me more. As far as this free consultation....not with me. I give an estimate based on what the client says they have....and then I add "as long as there are no surprises". I believe next year I'm going to raise fees for new clients. I get a lot of referrals because of my "low fees" (the low fees started because my clients, for the most part, didn't have a lot of money)....but these new clients can afford more.

So what recourse do they have? All things are explained in great detail in the user agreement. No guarantees of privacy. How can someone, with no money involved, protest about what a FREE website does with information they willingly post on the site? Missing the logic here....

Oh, yes, I well remember the feeling. In my early tax days, we used carbon paper to make the copies, and a 10 key was the only 'tool' we had. When I finished a return and then the client said. "Oh, by the way......." I wanted to scream.

Catherine "gets" it. Taxed has yet to.