Return Can't save at this time? WTF

[kcjenkins]

Actually, for small practices, just getting a demo of several programs, and becoming familiar with the one that works best for you is probably enough. But having no plan is what John was warning of. And yes, a large practice can afford to buy two programs, when they have too many clients to take a chance on being totally dependent on just one program.

I knew one place where they bought ATX for use with their small clients, while using Ultratax CS for the big clients. Why ATX? I was told it was because ATX actually had a larger set of forms than even Ultratax, as well as having fantastic support.

[JohnH]

quote name="SaraEA" post="90976" timestamp="1381198093"]

"Large practices with a high volume of returns should have an alternate vendor's software actually running on some computers in their office, just so they don't get blindsided by something like what happened with ATX this year."

JohnH, is this really practical? Alternate software isn't free. And would returns already have to be converted to the new software so they're ready to go? That's a major hassle. And do you have to train staff ahead of time to use the alternate just in case? The whole thing sounds like a major expense to me, too much for even a large practice to absorb....

[Jack from Ohio]

John H,

While your scenario for a high volume company looks and sounds good on paper, the scenario has NO basis in reality. Until you have operated and been part of a large scale operation, you cannot fathom the reality of why it will not work.

[JohnH]

Yes Jack.

Of course you are correct and I don't have a clue.

What worked for me when I was the controller for a manufacturing company with exactly the same issues obviously has no parallel in a tax preparation factory.

Please disregard everything I just said.

(And be thankful you don't work for me)

[Jack from Ohio]

I would like to hear from others on this board that actually work for a large scale operation and hear the thoughts from others that are actually running a large scale TAX PREPARATION FIRM. Until then, I stand by my statements. Make fun all you wish.

[Guest Taxed]

In my younger days I briefly worked for a firm that administered employer benefit plans and prepared over 1800 (if i recall correctly) form 5500 returns. These benefit plans are required to do discrimination testing and then file form 5500 each year. We used a software called Pentabs primarily and then the year they switched from DOS to Windows, all hell broke loose. Similar issues that ATx faced. But luckily the year before our boss was smart enough to get a competitor's product called Datair (still a DOS program) and trained half of the staff to run that. And that is how we got through that year (lots of overtime and extensions) and even after that he maintained both products for a while.

So my 2 cents is that any intelligent business owner, who cares about his reputation will have a backup option. Excuses will not work especially if you are a larger shop.

[Eric]

I told him face to face and I made sure he understood what I said. Now whether he did or will care is another question entirely.

Even if he did care, there's no way to make a disembodied call center care. How could they feel the same sense of pride in the product as the folks who worked so closely together to build it from nothing? The tight knit team who built and supported ATX Software is gone.

CCH didn't have any interest in purchasing the company culture. It's just a number on a very large balance sheet.

[Guest Taxed]

That is how it is with large multi national companies that purchase small niche firms with a loyal customer base. It never works out for the old customers in the long run. I have seen that with many products and initially it is all sweet talk and then you see the price go up and quality go down.

I am sure CCH has a long term strategy to somehow merge the ATX and Taxwise platform (at least the calculation engine part) to avoid duplicate efforts.

[Mr. Pencil]

That is how it is with large multi national companies that purchase small niche firms with a loyal customer base. It never works out for the old customers in the long run. I have seen that with many products and initially it is all sweet talk and then you see the price go up and quality go down.

I am sure CCH has a long term strategy to somehow merge the ATX and Taxwise platform (at least the calculation engine part) to avoid duplicate efforts.

Intuit never merged Lacerte and ProSeries. The two products are very different in style so they have different user bases. ProSeries used to be called TurboTax Professional, so that's a clue.

In the next year or two, I'm sure IRS is going to get its preparer registration rules. After that, the field is going to get even more technical. I don't see how either ATX or Taxwise can survive another five years unless they stop trying to be MAX and pick their niche. There is plenty of opportunity competing with Tax Tools, research databases, LLC payroll, and whatever.

[michaelmars]

I told him face to face and I made sure he understood what I said. Now whether he did or will care is another question entirely.

did you get the same blank tilted head look that I did? He says he is interested but looked like the meeting was the last place he wanted to be or he was trying to remember where he left something. All his v.p.'s and managers took notes of the conversations but a month later, it was again like talking to a blank wall when I spoke to some of them. That's why I dropped out of the beta testing.

[michaelmars]

I am in a fairly large practice and we have don't have a back up software in place but we do have one chosen. I don't think the learning curve is as great as people think. My large practice changed from prosystem to lacerate 3 years ago and MAYBE a return took 15 minutes longer due to learning curve. Mostly asset entry and k-1's don't convert well. My side practice changed this year from atx to proseries and I did have a leaning curve of maybe the first 10 returns of each type, then I flew on it.

Since I am 7 days a week starting mid January, I always preshop a new car so if mine craps out during the season, I know what I want and just have to go to 2-3 local dealers to shop price.

When my hvac at home was giving me trouble I did the same. This way you are covering bases.

[JohnH]

Michael:

Are you sure about that?

I'm told it is virtually impossible to change software in mid-season.

The learning curve is much too steep and it is well beyond my ability to fathom all the complexities...

[michaelmars]

if your practice is like mine, only simple returns are done during tax season, we have more on extension than done by the due dates. Brokerage accounts are getting amended 3-4 times, K-1s come in after the 9/15 deadline, etc. Plenty of time to learn the nuts and bolts needed in may and june. Also, the better the software, the more automated it is, for example atx takes a while to do multi states but in lacerate or pro, its done on the fly.

[JohnH]

Only kidding.

My small practice is exactly like yours in that all the complicated stuff gets put on extension.

And I did switch from ATX to Drake in late January.

[jklcpa]

Right on, Michael and John. The practice I came from before going solo didn't prep the 2500 returns, but because our firm had fewer professionals on staff than the example given, on a per person basis the number of returns was equivalent or higher. Actually, the firm was slightly understaffed as we had only a downtime of several weeks in November each year, and worked O/T consistently through 10/15 each year. We went through planned conversions twice, not between Jan and April, but we were still very busy, and the process was a minor hiccup at best. The programs weren't as user friendly or intuitive as they are today either. That doesn't include the time way back in the dark ages when the firm went from offsite processing to totally in-house. As Michael said, the learning curve was done on the first few returns and then smooth sailing after that.

I don't even buy the argument that any other software is too expensive. There are other reasonably priced products out there, if they are suitable for the firm's type of returns. If those low priced products aren't good enough, spend the bucks and go to Lacerte or UltraTax which I consider to be top of the line. Even the Cadillac product, ProSystem fx by CCH, that would probably cost $30K would only add $10-$12 per return to fully absorb the cost.

The whole point of planning out a backup software or purchasing a second one is to avoid the difficulties that lots of ATX users complained about this past season with loss of revenue and loss of clients, and to be able to make a smooth transition. It is foolish to risk a firm's client basis and professional reputation by not at least thinking out a plan in advance. The software is nothing more than a tool, and if that tool is broken or needs constant repairing, then buy a different tool!

ETA - I didn't mention before because it was more years ago, but the firm I worked for first had 42 employees, 35 were CPAs and the other 7 were support staff. That firm was definitely larger than the one we are referring to (has now grown to a professional staff of 60), and it also went through a smooth conversion. So yes, I do know something of larger practices converting!

[Guest Taxed]

>>> Intuit never merged Lacerte and ProSeries. The two products are very different in style so they have different user bases. ProSeries used to be called TurboTax Professional, so that's a clue.

I think Lacerte and Proseries have so little in common the way you work with the software, compared to ATX and Taxwise that are very similar in functionality and pricing for the same niche base.

CPA shops and preparers who want the bells and whistles and integration with other software, with CCH their option is prosystems fx. At least that is what I understood after speaking to a CCH rep and viewing all the demos.

[Lion EA]

By the way, you'd have to add other products to spend $30,000 on ProSystem fx. In pricing out UltraTax and ProSystem fx this summer, ProSystem fx cost less for my mix of returns, including support. I have a small but complex practice with a variety of entities and spend under $5,000 on ProSystem fx with a lot of pay per return and e-filing. If I prepared only 1040s, I'd pay even less.

And, yes, ATX is to ProSystem fx what ProSeries is to Lacerte. But, so is TaxWise to ProSystem fx. I never understood why CCH continues to have both ATX and TaxWise. Spreading their resources a bit thin.

[michaelmars]

Its easy to sped 30k on prosystem, you need every 6-10 state unlimited, you need rep fees for another 10-15 states, you need all tax types and you need efiling fees for $2000 returns.

[Jack from Ohio]

Its easy to sped 30k on prosystem, you need every 6-10 state unlimited, you need rep fees for another 10-15 states, you need all tax types and you need efiling fees for $2000 returns.

I was quoted about $20K. We do returns from all 50 states, and the state add-ons were the deal breaker.

[michaelmars]

I was quoted about $20K. We do returns from all 50 states, and the state add-ons were the deal breaker.

Just curious, was that a new customer discounted rate?

I wasn't involved in the firms billings when we used them but our last year was $33,000. I think they offered some extra services with estimate payment due emails to the clients quarterly etc and postcards to the clients to let them know when their returns were accepted, etc.

[Lion EA]

Yeah, I prepare more like 100 returns, with what seems like lots of states as I'm doing them but really is less than 10 different states most years. So, CT unlimited but pay per return for federal and all other states and entities (I don't prepare consolidated returns nor 5500s) and e-filing (so far I'm efiling only 1040s and 1041s). Nice thing is I'm paying most of that monthly as I prepare (and get paid for) returns and efiling. I don't see my totals until I'm preparing my own return and typing in my expenses!

[Lion EA]

Once when I was begging for discounts, the inside rep told me that they didn't give discounts unless you spent $15,000 or more with CCH. That didn't help me, but it might help your company, Michael. Also, they have reorganized their outside salesmen geographically and made some corresponding changes to their inside sales reps, so do get to know your salesmen in case they've changed over the last year.

[Jack from Ohio]

Just curious, was that a new customer discounted rate?

I wasn't involved in the firms billings when we used them but our last year was $33,000. I think they offered some extra services with estimate payment due emails to the clients quarterly etc and postcards to the clients to let them know when their returns were accepted, etc.

Yes it was a $15K discount after I told the salesperson I was an ATX user looking at other options.

[michaelmars]

Once when I was begging for discounts, the inside rep told me that they didn't give discounts unless you spent $15,000 or more with CCH. That didn't help me, but it might help your company, Michael. Also, they have reorganized their outside salesmen geographically and made some corresponding changes to their inside sales reps, so do get to know your salesmen in case they've changed over the last year.

we switched to Lacerte locked for 3 years @ 13,000 for everything they offer. For 2013 taxes our locked rate is done and our new rate is $17,000 with only 5 states and the rest we will rep as needed.

[Guest Taxed]

Now only if Ultratax and ProsystemFx would deal with the client and do the return all automatically for such premium prices!