NT-What do you do when.........?

[Guest Taxed]

You can hardly call it stealing when she is being paid for a service. Any of us who have been through it know how difficult it is to take care of an elderly parent; whether they are in house or in a facility.

It's the greed again....she gets paid...by the mother....for the care. So, instead of she & sister splitting mother's money upon mother's death....she gets some of it now....and there's less to split later.

I guess it is a matter of opinion.

I completely agree with you that it is very very difficult to take care of an aged parent. Been there.

[MsTabbyKats]

You can hardly call it stealing when she is being paid for a service. Any of us who have been through it know how difficult it is to take care of an elderly parent; whether they are in house or in a facility.

But, she isn't reporting on her tax return, that she is being paid....and it reduces the sister's share.

Although I can understand "being paid" to do this...(and ignoring the tax issue)....mom really needs 24/7 from a more qualified person. Friend has resources....mom has resources. She could well afford live-in qualified help if she doesn't want mom in a home. But, she opts to clean moms s__t etc than to pay someone else....and thus add to her hoard of money. (I didn't know she was getting paid until last month. Before that I listened to the tale of woe about mom and about how her sister "does nothing" and she does everything. This is a choice she made...so now I tell her not to complain, because she's getting paid to do it.)

[kcjenkins]

OMG....I never said she was abusing her mother. I said someone is supposed to be with her mother 24/7....but she takes breaks and leaves her mother alone for a couple of hours for "greedy purposes".

See, that is what I mean about "abusing", Tabby. Not that she is beating her. But leaving her alone for two hours is, in your own mind, too, WRONG. And, by the way, I know from my time caring for my husband, toward the end, that there are better ways to deal with the situation than just cleaning up the entire room after Mom has soiled the whole place. That should not be happening. Clearly, Mom would be better cared for in a facility where she would get PROPER care 24/7.

And I seriously doubt she would "be there for you", unless there was money in it for her. But that's your call.

[Jack from Ohio]

I have a very strong personal objection to even think about being paid to take care of my own mother. As a society, this is absolutely atrocious.

[mcb39]

I have a very strong personal objection to even think about being paid to take care of my own mother. As a society, this is absolutely atrocious.

I agree. I certainly didn't get paid and I took care of both of my parents for over five years. I have three brothers and all of their remaining assets were split evenly four ways. As hard as it was, I will never regret it. However, when things got beyond them being able to care for themselves with supervision; they went to a facility. They passed a year apart at ages 92 and 90. Ten years ago and I miss them still.

[Jack from Ohio]

I agree. I certainly didn't get paid and I took care of both of my parents for over five years. I have three brothers and all of their remaining assets were split evenly four ways. As hard as it was, I will never regret it. However, when things got beyond them being able to care for themselves with supervision; they went to a facility. They passed a year apart at ages 92 and 90. Ten years ago and I miss them still.

There is a big difference in being paid to take care of your mother and paying someone else when it is beyond your own capabilities. I did not face the long term care issue with my Dad, and Mom is still living on her own. I TOTALLY get where you are coming from.

[jklcpa]

Well said, Marilyn and Jack.

I've also had to care for aging parents, and I would never think of being paid or that my brothers and sisters need to contribute equal time either. I've heard them each say many times, "don't worry about it, Judy will take care of it" and that's ok too. I have a little more time to help Mom out than they do. We all pitch in, and I know that all I need to do is make the call and they would come at any time of the day or night.

[kcjenkins]

That is wonderful, Judy. When I was caring for my mother, my sister was too far away, and "too busy", and my brother, sadly, was right there but eager to inherit, and I actually had to protect her from him. But hard as it was, not only on me but on my family to do without me during that time, I will never regret a single day.

[MsTabbyKats]

Thanks for letting me vent...and understanding.

Before I knew that the friend was taking money to care for mom (again..forget the tax thing) I let her complain....and told her she had choices. After I found out she profited, I told her "don't complain....you're getting paid". (She could just not get paid...and legitimately inherit the $$$ tax free....but she's doing this to reduce her sister's share.)

But you know....those other things....like: Going to the podiatrist and telling him she's "unemployed". (I guess she forgot about her cash babysitting jobs, dog walking, cat care, money from mother and huge portfolio.) So he waived the co-pay of $15. I never heard of anyone waiving a co-pay! And the list goes on.......

Would she really be there for me....is a good question. There really isn't a way for her to profit from me. I think emotionally, yes...she would be (if I needed a shoulder to cry on).

Perhaps next time she brings up "finding a hair in the food", "waiving a co-pay", walking a mile at 1 AM although someone gave her $$$ for a cab.....I'll just meekly say:

"Don't you ever pay for anything?"

[Guest Taxed]

My doctor has a sign in bold at the receptionist counter, Co Pay required based on your insurance no exceptions. They have to account for that with the insurance company. So this podiatrist may be marking it as collected.

Walking home at 1 am is asking for serious trouble for this stupid woman! (sorry KC had to use that word)

[JohnH]

I'm intrigued by the responses concerning caring for mom. Maybe I've missed something in the translation. But I've been through something like this a couple of times with my in-laws and another relative.

If I had two children who were in line to inherit, with one of them caring for me and the other not, then I'd think it is fair to pay the one who is caring for me while I'm still alive, in place of a stranger doing it. I'd probably still split the inheritance equally between the two, but it would be common sense that the payments to the one caring for me while I was still living would inevitably reduce the total amount payable equally to each when it died. That's just common sense.

Personally, I don't have any problem, with that outcome, unless the caregiver isn't doing their job or if the non-caregiver is willing and able to shoulder some of the burden. In that case, I'd have to split the payments between both of them in proportion to the time they were willing to spend. As I see it, paying a child to care for me would be much preferable to paying a stranger. Somebody is going to be paid and the eventual estate is going to take a hit for the cost of that care.

[Jack from Ohio]

I'm intrigued by the responses concerning caring for mom. Maybe I've missed something in the translation. But I've been through something like this a couple of times with my in-laws and another relative.

If I had two children who were in line to inherit, with one of them caring for me and the other not, then I'd think it is fair to pay the one who is caring for me while I'm still alive, in place of a stranger doing it. I'd probably still split the inheritance equally between the two, but it would be common sense that the payments to the one caring for me while I was still living would inevitably reduce the total amount payable equally to each when it died. That's just common sense.

Personally, I don't have any problem, with that outcome, unless the caregiver isn't doing their job or if the non-caregiver is willing and able to shoulder some of the burden. In that case, I'd have to split the payments between both of them in proportion to the time they were willing to spend. As I see it, paying a child to care for me would be much preferable to paying a stranger. Somebody is going to be paid and the eventual estate is going to take a hit for the cost of that care.

My caring for my parents had NOTHING AT ALL to do with money. It never entered the decision making process. Neither does/did the participation of my sibling.

[kcjenkins]

I'm intrigued by the responses concerning caring for mom. Maybe I've missed something in the translation. But I've been through something like this a couple of times with my in-laws and another relative.

If I had two children who were in line to inherit, with one of them caring for me and the other not, then I'd think it is fair to pay the one who is caring for me while I'm still alive, in place of a stranger doing it. I'd probably still split the inheritance equally between the two, but it would be common sense that the payments to the one caring for me while I was still living would inevitably reduce the total amount payable equally to each when it died. That's just common sense.

Personally, I don't have any problem, with that outcome, unless the caregiver isn't doing their job or if the non-caregiver is willing and able to shoulder some of the burden. In that case, I'd have to split the payments between both of them in proportion to the time they were willing to spend. As I see it, paying a child to care for me would be much preferable to paying a stranger. Somebody is going to be paid and the eventual estate is going to take a hit for the cost of that care.

John, I think you did miss something. The issue bothering some of us was not her getting paid, it was, for me, that in this case it sounds like it's not really the best care for the mom. That she was doing it to keep that money from her sister, but that she sometime left mom alone for 2 hrs. Mind you, everyone needs a break, but there are funds to pay for help during those times, so mom does not end up laying alone in her own waste while daughter takes a break.

[JohnH]

OK.
Got it.
Given the overall behavior of Ms TK's friend, I understand that.

I was just speculating about the issue of "paying" a child for providing care and how that might affect the ultimate estate available to all the heirs. I would never suggest that caring for an aging parent should in any way DEPEND upon being paid. Especially so in the case of a parent who cannot afford to pay for their own care.

However, if I'm the parent and have sufficient resources, I'm going to take a slightly different view. I would most likely devise a plan to compensate the child providing the care, knowing that this would have the effect of decreasing the remaining estate available to divide among all the children. I would also maintain transparency by telling all my potential heirs what I'm doing and why.

The simple fact is that we want our children to have good, productive careers in order to provide for their own children and also to make provision for their own eventual retirement. Time spent caring for me would have the indirect effect of decreasing their potential earnings and thus having a negative effect on their ability to accomplish that goal. It deserves consideration, and it demands a fair analysis.

Unfortunately, many people postpone thinking about these things until they no longer have the mental faculties to make rational decisions. The end result is that the siblings often wind up squabbling about the estate and acting greedy, when in fact no one is entitled to anything in the first place beyond what their parents decide to leave them. Or, in the case of Ms TK's friend, an incontinent parent, apparently incapable of making their own decisions, with two heirs apparently already at odds over the estate before she's even in the grave. Not a pretty sight.

[Gail in Virginia]

I personally hope that my parents spend their estate doing what they want to do and having a good time before they are unable to do that. I owe them, not the other way around. And as far as I know, my brother and sister feel the same way.

But my husband's grandmother lived with us for about 4 years before she passed away, and she did pay us "room and board." But she set the rate, not me, it was not excessive, and was not a condition for her living with us. I think it helped her to feel a little more independent. She had previously lived with her daughter (my husband's aunt) and paid her the same thing plus helped to pay for any repairs around the house or appliances that need to be purchased.

Every family works these things out in their own way, but it does bother me when they seem to see the money as the important part of the equation.

[JohnH]

Gail's situation is a perfect example of what we are talking about. I agree completely with her expectations regarding her parents and also the arrangement with her husband's grandmother.

My reason for pursing this a little is primarily because any of us might be asked to weigh on on a decision of this type with clients. I've had several conversations about this very issue with clients because some of my client base it getting older (as am I), and they bring up this sort of thing from time-to-time. If we're inclined to share an opinion, it should be reasoned and rational.

[MsTabbyKats]

Since this thread has focused on "parent care" here's her living situation:

Manhattan NYC....apts are small

1 bedroom apt....about 700 sq feet

Husband sleeps in bedroom and locks the door because mother wanders

Friend and mother sleep on sofa bed in the living room (but friend is up all night because mother needs to pee or gets up to wander etc)

Until very recently...adult son of friend slept in "partitioned off" area in living room

Dog

Medicare has told her that these conditions are "unsustainable".....and has recommended "a nursing home" or that someone be there 24/7

Now....assuming one has the resources as she does....is it worth "making more $$$" to live like this???? Or, is it greed????

[Jack from Ohio]

Simple. Greed. No actions show the concern that the mother gets the proper care she needs.

[JohnH]

I agree.

In this case, it sounds very much like greed.

Unless the mother's dementia is such that moving her to a facility & unfamiliar surroundings would send her further off the deep end, destroying the only remaining connection to anything that brings a little joy into her life. There are sometimes things more important than physical comfort (and even safety) when it comes to mentally impaired people. I've seen that firsthand with a couple of relatives and had to accept the associated risks while the situation played itself out a little more.

But given the totality of this person's worldview as Ms TK has presented it, I somewhat doubt that what's best for mom has entered the equation.

[michaelmars]

If you were ever in a nursing home in the city you would do anything to keep your parents out of one. As a critical care nurse, my wife would never leave her mom in one, moved mom into one of my rentals, wife quit job to care for mom, had help from medicare during the day and she spent many nights with mom.

When we did try the nursing home route, we got calls at 2 in the morning "I need to use bathroom and have been ringing bell for over an hour" etc etc etc. They are over crowded and either understaffed or staffed with uncaring aides. We found from charts that mom was denied fluids after dinner so she wouldn't need bathroom [she was a big lady and hard to get out of bed], till she wound up dehydrated in hospital. The hospital physician joined us in a state complaint against the home. At another home, my wife saw that a patient with CP would be kept in bed for 3-4 days at a time without any therapy nor being put in a chair for the community room. She made a complaint on that womans behalf that had the home receive a violation.

I could do on and on, my mom spent 3 years in various homes because in each one she would not yet the physical therapy needed so she would get CHF, get sent to a hospital and then get sent back to any home in the area that had an open bed.

Anyone that loves their parents would do anything they could to keep them out of a home.

Now for the money!!!. Luckily I had a place for mom and a skilled wife but she did give up her job, and took time from her own kids to care for mom. We would never ask for money but mom made sure that her daughter got what she left and not her brother who lived local but didn't partake in any of moms care. In my case the money was insignificant but the gesture was appreciated.

BTW a skilled nursing home in NY can cost $75000-115000 per year.

[MsTabbyKats]

Michael-

Would you want your child to live "as my friend lives".

I've asked her...."Is this the life you would want for your son?"

She has options. She could sublet a studio in HER building....and hire help for "part of the day". (Another suggestion I made....before I knew she was getting paid.) This would be less than a home.

[michaelmars]

I am just commenting on the state of nursing homes in our area

[kcjenkins]

Gail, that is exactly how kids should feel about their parents. And John, I agree if one child is taking on the physical job, that should get that taken into consideration, where the parent has enough assets for it to be an issue. Sadly we see a lot of cases where that's not how it happens.

[mcb39]

My mom and dad never "paid" me, but they always paid for lunch, gas and special treats. They also gave me their car when they were no longer able to drive because that was the vehicle we were using for shopping, appointments, etc. This made them feel better about the situation. I knew I would have trouble with two of my brothers over it; and I did. In the end, my niece wanted to buy the car and I told my mom to sell it to her; which she did.

These situations are difficult, at best. My heart still aches when I think about it.

[SaraEA]

I have been through at least four elderly relatives in at least six different nursing homes and only had an issue with the quality of care in one of them. In all of the others these people received excellent care and were loved by the staff to boot. The important thing is to visit often. When staff knows someone is watching over their loved one's care, they seem to do a better job. In one home the adult children of people in an Alzheimer's unit who were there frequently set up a little group and each "adopted" a person in the unit who had no one. They visited that person when they visited their relative and advocated for him or her. The administration loved them because they finally had someone to discuss the forgotten one's needs with.

When a frail elderly person remains at home there is indeed a risk that relatives take advantage. MsTabby's description is the perfect example. I had a client who moved from another state to take over his mom's affairs, fired the lawyer who was conservator and had himself appointed, and paid himself $50k a year to care for Mom. I prepared her return and his. He was not happy with the results. He was also not happy when he told me he was going to give himself a $10k raise the following year and I suggested he needed Probate Court approval to do so. Never saw him again.