Medlin Software, Dennis

Must compare all possibilities to know which is most beneficial. PPP, somewhere between 8 and 20k eligible (the higher is if they can include health care costs), which likely the 2x factor is eligible for forgiveness, and likely the entire amount. The other loan offers more cash (I am too blurry to remember if it had a small grant component) now. There is also the possibility of one spouse being eligible for FFCRA leave, or possibly, the 50% credit if their income drops the required amount for any quarter (max $10k benefit for two employees). Then you have to chart if the business can have more than one, which can work together, and which preclude one or more of the others. The key is having any accurate ability to project income for the remainder of the year (in addition to good payroll records at your desk).

An interesting aspect, saw one source suggesting it is acceptable to add employees from the application count compared to the forgiveness count. I have seen no prohibition from having your forgiveness payroll being higher than the loan calculation monthly amount. It does make sense to be wary of doing so in a plain attempt to pad the forgiveness. But, such as might be the case for me, I need temporary help now (after the Feb 15 :count" date), to allow me time to do more programming to handle the FFRCA implications in payroll. Some might even have a higher payroll for the same employees, if they are doing extra work, such as cleaning after their usual hours. Once the forgiveness application documents come out, then more will be known. Someone did list things to not do, such as fictitious hiring of all types. Even if able, I would not suggest shifting income into those 8 weeks either. A nice pattern of regular pay per employee at a stable number of hours will likely prevent any unneeded questioning / audit during forgiveness application. Not all employers will be able to "use" all of the possible forgiveness (roughly, the extra .5 in the multiplier) in allowable expenses, especially home based folks who likely pay no rent. So for those who cannot project enough expenses to use the extra loan amount, they should keep good records and be ready to pay back or carry the amount of their loan which is not eligible for forgiveness.

Unless something unexpected pops up, they would be eligible based on their averages allowable payroll costs based on the H&W (the employees). The contractors are on their own. My bank was easy to apply online, once they told me to (they had a virtual queue). (Helps that I do my own payroll...) The SBA form, with about 4 or five bits of extra (to likely help with the calculation), and controlling interest people information. Had to submit 941 forms and a payroll summary as of Feb 15. I "added" a sheet showing how I calculated the amount I entered since their instructions did not mention, or even ask for allowable health insurance costs, and since they are not shown on a 941. Best to apply with a bank you have an account with, as the bank is allowed to process their own customers first. The one delay was the online service they used for the document was a bit slow at first. I suspect it was because they were trying to verify the signing person;s identity through a credit bureau type system. I think when mine went through, they disabled the identity verification online, and will likely identify me via my account records.

WA State has employer and employee pay WC (they call it L & I) only on actual hours worked, so emergency sick pay will not affect their L&I calculations. I should have remembered. WA is a growing outlier, as their state PTO does not believe tips are wages (they copied their UI definition of wages) so tipped employees get the dirty end of the stick. Call me mush brain for the next week or two

Deep diving into this. DOL is using "intent of Congress" to smooth over some of the bumpy parts in the law text. My eyes are blurry... so I may be slightly off on some of the things not directly affecting me! Hopeful the good faith provision prevents anal type auditing. For instance, calculating the pay rate allowed for reimbursement accurately can be a chore, and I suspect many will pay based on the current pay rate, which could be more than allowed for reimbursement. I don't have the cite handy, but I saw something where the intent rule is allowing employers not to restrict the credit to their SS match amounts, they can retain FWH if needed to "cover" the emergency leave. I have seen at least one state which affirms sick leave, even this emergency leave, is subject to WC premiums. States tend to use the same remuneration rules for WC, or I have not yet seen a state have something drastically different from the others. The reimbursement must be added to business gross income to avoid the dreaded double dip. Employers do not have to allow start and stop. They can restrict it to once started, it cannot be restarted . Plenty who grasped this incorrectly. This is not retroactive. Did not start until Apr 1, 2020, so there are likely few, if any, who need to pay it out or file a 7200 before at least Monday. I have several customers who closed before Apr 1, but think they have to pay this because the employee's school is also closed. One has a part time employee who is still working, but is asking for the free leave extra money because their child's school is closed. The DOL is likely the best current official one stop source. Their Q&A is lengthy, but every employer should read it. https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/pandemic

Not considering straight loans, only looking at items with reimbursement/forgiveness. Straight loans are fairly straight forward, with the understand forgiveness may not be part of the process. It is complicated, especially since there could be several options for a particular business. The "credit" items, such as via Form 7200, are likely the easiest. The PPP SBA loan, and potential forgiveness, may be the more lucrative. Taking the retention credit on the 7200 means you are not eligible for forgiveness on a PPP loan. Forther complicating is 7200 is also used for partial compensation for fronting the emergency PTO. (I did see something that excluded WC costs from this compensation, which makes the ePTO very expensive for high WC premium businesses, and the business owner may not realize the ramifications until their WC bill comes biting.) The retention credit maxes at $5k per employee. If the business can get through the crisis and can hire most, all, or more FTE equivalent employees by the end of June, PPP loans with possible forgiveness are likely the most lucrative. Forgiveness covers 8 weeks of "payroll costs" and some other allowable expenses including group health care costs, up to the loan amount. Personally, I am advising some friends, but have too many customers who advise individually. Thus my post in the other forum offering to refer to those who are seeking possible referrals for such advice, which would work into tax gigs. I am hoping most people can get advice from their tax preparer, as that is the person who likely already has the needed numbers, assuming the business owner does not want to handle on their own. Of past note, Lay offs were a very viable option for certain businesses, as it limited exposure to ePTO costs (unreimbursed such as increased WC, and time spent processing), and provided something for their employees (UI, plus the extra 600 weekly UI add on, and the ability to apply for free medical). If those who were forced to or choose to lay off can rehire in time, then the PPP loan remains viable. The one caveat on the PPP loan is if there are employees earning over 100k, as the amount over 100k must be excluded. I have seen at least one firm (online) which is offering to handle the PPP process front and back end, for a fee. This may be a viable option for some to use. The bank handling the PPP loan gets a percentage of the loan as a fee. "Agents" who help with the loan process can also receive a fee. I am not really digging any deeper, since I found the best course for my situation already...

Among my customers, I anticipate at least a few will be asking for assistance in determining which plan or plans (such as PPP) will be the most beneficial. I am not in position to go through each customer's situation and offer suggestions. However, if there are any here who would be interested in being offered to my customers as a referral, you can send an email to my work email (medlin at medlin dot com) and I will add you to a list I send when asked. Include your preferred method of contact. I have seen several online who are offering application assistance and advice (one has a $1k retainer for PPP app, with a separate arrangement/fee for the forgiveness app). I have no idea if my customers want to go that far, as most are capable of handling applications and forms, but they may need help running scenarios/numbers to see which processes will be most beneficial. Dennis

Absolutely, Payroll Protection Program. No requirement to have laid anyone off, or had sales drop by application date. Affirmation is vague enough anyone can affirm. Just sign up after me

For me, I can be certain of my numbers, so it was easy to see the PPP process is most beneficial for me. For others, maybe it is the retention credit or something else.

IRS Form 7200 and instructions are ion their draft page...

Maybe, I have not researched it recently, but then again, I don't exclude it from WC wages in any state in my software (it is broken out though). For the high WC codes, say over $10 per 100 (10%), this could be a real unexpected bite for some employers.

What I am curious to see/find is how WC calculations are affected. WC wages currently include PTO. If some sort of exception is not in place or created (the emergency PTO excluded from "wages" for WC purposes, or the PTO is not really PTO) then this is something many business will have to consider, those with high WC rates.

"He doesn't make that much money" That you know of. I would not be concerned with that aspect. I watched a hair care person on the news last night, complain about the CARES Act not helping self employed enough. What I "heard" in my head was the CARES Act was not compensating for unreported tips well enough. If you want to rid them, then 10% over the local over charge, as long as you are happy to take the work if they want to stay at their new rate. Could add a JD type structure, billing for all time, against retainer, and when they see the time you really spend, they will clean up, or you will enjoy being paid 15min to leave a phone message.

Or raise their price by some multiple (complication from new laws is always a good generic reason), enough to make you comfortable with their business, then let them decide. I used to be the "fire 'um" type until I took to heart advice from others about there always being a price which I can tolerate something, and sometimes, more PITA customers are more profitable in less time than more average customers.. I have current customers who are not allowed to ask questions (as they abused the offered support). I have some who the software is locked to a specific computer (as they were installing on computers of others, and taking money from others). Some I only accept money orders, with an extra fee added on, as they play the "chargeback" game when they pay by charge card. The second example was the tougher to swallow. Those folks were actual thieves, but I found a way to keep taking their money while preventing their theft. Many years back, some folks figured out how to crack my registration scheme. When I resolved it, I gained customers from those who were stealing, so even theft can bring in customers... I know what they were doing, they know, but I found a way not to have to ask, and yet turn them into revenue.

The college may have someone you can get in touch with. Likely full time, but if you want comfort, a print out of their unit fee and full time unit count could be enough.

Only from memory, but at some places, that amount would not be enough for full time credits. You should be able to look a the school web site or just a google search to see cost per unit and units to be considered full time.

One interesting likely item is employer defer their SS match. I will "play along", but I will likely deposit on Dec 31, unless there is some tax rule which allows me to deduct the deferred (unpaid) amount in the liability year, not when paid. (Not a payroll tax "holiday".) The results of the law are forever reaching. Employers will have to be ready to front several weeks of wages out of pocket (or by some other means) whenever a emergency PSL declaration is made. This will be on top of what will likely be a mass increase in states which will add paid sick leave (with no notice or proof needed) regulations. I self chuckled at those who were complaining about the blanket 600 add on to UI, but when one does the math and asks around, many employers (who even had a choice) elected layoffs as it got more money to the employees faster, and made the employees eligible for free health care. The pre tax student loan/fee reimbursement is one to watch. The text I saw last night had no dollar limit, but other reports had said 5250. Some were saying they think this will become semi permanent (via extenders) or eventually full permanent. Pre tax always gets my attention. The text I saw was 880 pages so far. My lively wife of more than three decades complains when I have to work hard to keep up with these changes, but we are always happy as we realize complication is good for those in our professions. Right now, with stay at home, she appreciates any reason for me to be at my desk most of the day!

Only applies to currently employed folks. Those laid off are not eligible for the emergency PSL. I read this (from the star unfortunately) as being more for the next event. It remains on the books and can be enabled by declaration as needed. There are some credits when rehiring. (Make sure to get new W4 forms, I9, report new hire, keep any PTO or other balances required, etc. Better safe than sorry!) The business owners I have spoken to who had a similar decision almost all went for lay offs. Not only to try to keep the business viable, but to get the most money to their former employees as soon as possible (and making them eligible for health care too). Some, who are not facing stay at home or school closures at present, are even considering layoffs before April, then seeing how their locality proceeds. Catch-22 for all concerned, no way already in place to handle the situation, and no way to fund it cleanly for employers. For the future, employers have to be ready to float full wages for 2 weeks at any time, upon declaration. (Another employer burden, like mandated sick time with no notice or documentation required.) Those who went with reduced hours are facing the same numbers game now, lay off before April, or play the credit "game". Few have a meaningful balance due so most will have to be paying out of pocket (loan, charge cards, whatever they can scrape up) and hope reimbursement is speedy. Rinse and repeat until the PSL runs out. The "rub" is the law is in place, but the mechanisms are not, such as the exemption and reimbursement processes. Thus the 30 day "good faith" rule, since even those who write and disseminate the rules know the mechanisms will not be in place in time. My suggestion is to not read the news accounts and opinions. Read multi-person opinions, such as APA and other trade/professional group opinions and do what is best for the business to survive. Business fails trying to do good can cause more harm than layoffs. --- The more interest item, to me, is the keep working aspects. Way too much room to game, but probably the best the politicians could pass given their desire to look good during an election year. The pre tax school fee and student loan reimbursement should not to be overlooked. The language allows for the employer to pay direct or to the employee, so on its face, appears to be something which would be reimbursed at end of year. This could even make it into the extender group or made permanent. Parent Plus is included (good for me!). If structured to only reimburse for principal, the employee can still include the interest, if needed, for preparing their own return. Oddly, the "news" touted a dollar limit. The bill text I saw last night had no dollar limit. Waiting for the actual law text...

Or, as someone wiser than me once posted here, raise their fee to a level they are no longer jerks. Many people have more money than manners, and it was said the job is to get as much of the former as it takes to ignore the lack of the latter.

That is the window the emergency paid leave is available. From what I am hearing, many are already laid off, and will not be eligible for paid leave, just (hopefully) UI. Those who are still employed and eligible as of 4/2 may benefit, if they need the time off. The PSL is two weeks max. The FMLA is 12 weeks, 10 paid. Both are likely better than UI, assuming health care costs can be covered. The employer has to front the money, which is not going to be easy for many. (All of this is subject to new guidance, so I reserve the right to change my thoughts!) The simple math, and employers not wanting to front money, apply for exemptions, and deal with other paperwork, is many will get layed off, since they can get UI, food stamps, and medical coverage while unemployed. If there is ever another crisis, the emergency leave rule can be implemented by declaration, and should be nearly instant, or at least faster than a month.

Some FL greyhound tracks are closing for good (earlier than required/expected), and dogs will be heading towards forever homes. Some people will be participating in cross country hauls, then isolating themselves from their family upon their return... "Life finds a way."

Back from self imposed hibernation. Thanks to all for the kind words. Starting to wrap my head around the new/proposed payroll changes. Talking with friends, anyone who can claim exposure at work, WC seems the best bet. Non work exposure, DI (if available). Any new sick leave seems to be too late, as employers are not able to carry employees to get to that point, and are not willing to invest scarce resources in dealing with compliance. That leaves UI for the rest, which is what I was hoping would get boosted during the current crisis. I am hoping we need just a couple more weeks to smooth out "the curve", as it is clear the medical field is RAPIDLY catching up with testing, and has began several treatment trials with early signs of non-negative results.

Have not yet heard from customers. However, friends are choosing to layoff employees since it gets the employees money faster than the first payroll after April 2, and since they cannot carry the employees until then, or after the PSL is done. While the effort is appreciated, for employer/employees, the complication seems, so far, to be such, most are choosing other methods. The other issue is for the many employers who make their deposits with each payroll, and not having any taxes due to use to fund the sick leave. I just don't see this benefiting many hourly employees at present. As I saw once (not reconfirmed) this will be something available again upon declaration, it could help with a short term future issue. For SE, it should help. If there was a known end date to the quarantines, then we might have something, but as of this writing, no solid end date is known.

Thank you. Perfectly timed, and with our dearest friends. Gives me time to reflect, and to not think of the nightmare of dealing with two (my grandmother too) intestate passing's with a (now highly valued as commercial property) home involved, that a reclusive relative (with half interest in the property) lives in now. I guess I am the first generation "grown up" in my family. I had been working on a folder for my personal items for those I eventually leave behind, and I have promised myself to get my things in one place first. I promised to not leave a mess for my heirs...

Personally... I am finding county health departments seem to offer the most reasonable advice, even through they are stuck with some statewide requirements. I also have a son who works in a major hospital, one which is one of the first to take patients such as this issue. So I do benefit from the advice he can share, and that is after he hears from hos mother about keeping safe. This is our 3rd or 4th time where there has been something new or scary to cause us worry for him. For us, we are being thoughtful as to our actions. But, we are going about our normal life for the most part. Today, we are regular grocery shopping and preparing for a camping trip. Our friends, who are all over 60, are also camping with us. However, we will likely practice the social distancing, and will not be meeting in any of our RV's. Instead, we will be hanging out in covered tents with propane fires, and walking our dogs. We were frank with each other, and all in agreement we want (need) to go, but we can easily be more careful. The campground is owned by someone in their local politics, and they are 100% deferring to their health department, which as of this morning, says camping is fine, with precautions. To be very candid and balanced, my mother had an emergency medical event over the weekend. She did not survive. It was not related to the virus at all. However, while we talked to her pre-op, we all thought it better not to go there to visit before surgery, since we cannot say we were not carrying the virus, or flu, or a cold, etc. The reality is, the virus was not the deciding factor, just plain common sense for an elderly person facing open chest surgery and recovery, when we have the technology to have voice and video communication. Had she survived, we would have been there the next morning, in full containment suits, just to be safe for her (even without the virus threat). The biggest issue our son told us was lack of test kits, and the 48 hour wait for results. he was shifted to a group who is working on a way to be able to test more people, faster, without having for test kits to be supplied. For me, things like this virus are not the first or last to come along. We cannot live in a bubble forever, so we have to figure out how to mitigate reasonably. Trying to slow the inevitable spread is a good thing, as if we can spread the "bubble" out over several more weeks, we can lessen the pressure on treatment facilities. But, it cannot be stopped, and the majority of us will be exposed, if we have not been (and already recovered) already. Looking at my newly rediscovered grandfather's dog tags from WW2, which show he served during WWW1, reupped in the 20's, volunteered for WW2 at 41 years old (and we know he tried to volunteer for Korea in his 50's), reminds me people can go through and get though much worse than my generation can ever imagine. All of his volunteering after hearing how his grandparents were marched west (Trail of Tears), and him and my grandmother making the Okie trek to CA during the dust bowl.