ATX at 5/1 NYC Accounting Technology Show

[HV Ken]

I attended the NYC accounting technology show in NYC on Wed 5/1. CCH SFS (ATX) had a large and well staffed booth. They also had a breakout room where they took people for private conversations. I went to their breakout room and spoke with several key product leaders as well as the new CEO Jason Marx in long conversations about 2012 and the future, probably two hours in all. We talked about the disaster of 2012 and what their plans are going forward. I will let them handle the communication of their plans, but I left with no doubt that they intend to fix ATX for 2013 and remain a player in this market. I made it clear that in order for me to be retained as a client going forward, I will need more than a "trust me, we will get it right in 2013 and 2012 will not repeated." The execution and communication is up to them, but while I am in the process of evaluating other software, I will also remain open to staying with ATX provided they can earn my trust back. I left feeling that they genuinely understand that trust and confidence has been lost and that they know that have a hard road in front of them.

The highlight for me was meeting @michaelmars at the conference. We have known each other for many years via this community and private correspondence, but to meet in person was really awesome!

I am not trying to convince anyone, just simply sharing my experience from spending time with them at the show.

[rfassett]

Thanks Ken. Good info.

[kcjenkins]

Good to know, Ken. It's a very hopeful sign that they admit their mistakes and are facing customers, not hiding behind glib sales talk.

[Terry O]

Thanks for the input Ken! I am still reeling from the accusation that it was "only my computer" fault!!! The indignation of the support group (which in hindsight - -was sheer overwhelming) was pretty unsettling for a one person office.

It wasn't until the end of February that after multiple calls etc, that the software was workable.

I am still waiting for an apology from SENIOR management!!!

[Guest Taxed]

Ken did you get a feeling that CCH was going to offer something more than the usual 10% early discount to retain existing users and bring back those folks who jumped ship.

I seem to recall a recent survey that showed Drake with a commanding 10% market share and climbing and ATX was in the middle of the pack. Intuit was ahead of CCH.

I wonder if Mr Marx was honest with you and told you what went wrong exactly and why they could not take corrective action before point of no return?

[Lee B]

One of the posters on the ATX board said this morning that he was able to negotiate Max for $795 a year for three years,

basically one year free. He hasn't decided what to do.

He did say that he paid $1,245 last year.

My renewal quote last year for Max was $1,249 before discount.

[mcb39]

One of the posters on the ATX board said this morning that he was able to negotiate Max for $795 a year for three years,

basically one year free. He hasn't decided what to do.

I don't believe that he actually said that it was MAX or what version he was using. I was trying to see what package he was negotiating. If it was MAX he got a great offer and my rep lied.

[Jack from Ohio]

I don't believe that he actually said that it was MAX or what version he was using. I was trying to see what package he was negotiating. If it was MAX he got a great offer and my rep lied.

I will be holding our rep's feet to the flame!! We will see if all the talk about "Wanting to keep our customers" and other drivel is fact or not.

Fool me once, shame on you;

Fool me twice, shame on me;

Fool me 12.15 times, I am a blithering, mindless moron!!

[Lee B]

Ken,

After givings your post some thought. I am a little bit encouraged by your post.

However most people when confronted by upset customers are going to be contrite

and say things that will reassure you that everything is going to get fixed.

So far, I haven't seen or heard anything else that reassures me.

So I am going go ahead with a thorough demo and review of Drake.

Frankly, I don't really want to change, but crossing my fingers and hoping that a miracle will occur

isn't the way to prepare for next tax season.

[HV Ken]

There was no indication made to me by any CCH SFS employee about the price of the product, discounts, etc. I would suggest an individual conversation with your rep, and if you are not happy with that you can certainly escalate up the chain. I would expect retenton is important to them. I was clear that they need some real communication - I am hoping after they get back from the NY and NJ shows, they will elvaluate all that they heard and show us something.

After talking in depth with the technical team, I left feeling that they understand what went wrong and that they have a plan in place to address it. The way it was shared with me is that some of the improvements are pretty significant and could not be rolled out during tax season and will probably not be seen until next year's product. My message to them is that I am going to need more evidence than that and a simple "trust me" is *NOT* going to cut it.

They listened - they took notes - let's see what comes out in the next couple of weeks. I know if I don't see anything before month end, Mr. Marx and I will be chatting again!

[Guest Taxed]

Let's see if they demonstrate a prototype version of their 2013 version at the IRS Nationwide forums this summer.

What is the point of doing those enhancements if they can't demonstrate to their existing and potential new users?

Like you I too am NOT comfortable with "trust me, it will be there"!

[HV Ken]

What is the point of doing those enhancements if they can't demonstrate to their existing and potential new users?

I agree completely. I told them I would be using 2012 through the end of the filing season, and I expect that product to continue to improve and restore some level of confidence that they are on the right path.

[michaelmars]

Thanks Ken, it was great hanging with you too. As for CCH, i agree with Ken's assessment but i am very skeptical by nature and not too trusting. All the people there were in sales so they know how to push the corporate line. I did like that they took copious notes on our feelings toward their handling of 2012 and notes on enhancements we would like. Not once did i hear any excuses or justifications for how 2012 was handled, they appologized and each and every one of them separately stated that they know that if 2013 isn't working as it should then they are out of business. The only minor hedge on their whole mea culpa thing was they did say that "stand alone people didn't seem to affected" but this wasn't offered as an excuse or defense.

They did promise that in 2013 there would be greater intergration between federal and state returns. Perhaps auto update on the return manager of efiling status. We also debated a bit on different support options so that perhaps more advanced users or users of there more expensive products could get routed differently or that certain customers get tagged as being knowledgable enough that when they say to first tier "i need second tier" they get it without jumping through hoops and wasting time with the 1st tier folks. I complained that the KB's are useless because so many searches come up with fixes or workarounds for prior years programs and they admitted that they should be year specific so we could search only in the year we are working on. One very nice enhancement promised is the roll over of a Preparer file so that your custom letters, print options etc will roll year to year.

Although they were aware that i switched to proseries for 2012 they invited me up to there breakaway room and later on to their private cocktail reception. They added me to a list to get a beta test version of 2013 in November so i will see how it is, they also promised to send me an updated version of 2012 complete with the latest updates. I said i would look at it but not if i have to a single thing to my computer to get it to run other than just install it. I tried to drink enough to equal the extra cost i had in changing to Pro Series but only Ken can tell you how i did. [their liquor was middle shelf not top shelf but not crap!!!!

[JohnH]

Good sales reps are always aware of one thing.

"Sincerity is the key to success. Once you can fake that, you've got it made."

[Guest Taxed]

Yeah but once you see right through the fakeness you never trust them. That is why i have a real problem with used car salesman trying to sell a beater as a cream puff!

I like salespeople that will give me both the pros and cons of a product and compare it with a few options.

I like the Homedepot website when you can compare the products side by side to the features and price.

[TonyP]

There was no indication made to me by any CCH SFS employee about the price of the product, discounts, etc. I would suggest an individual conversation with your rep, and if you are not happy with that you can certainly escalate up the chain. I would expect retenton is important to them. I was clear that they need some real communication - I am hoping after they get back from the NY and NJ shows, they will elvaluate all that they heard and show us something.

After talking in depth with the technical team, I left feeling that they understand what went wrong and that they have a plan in place to address it. The way it was shared with me is that some of the improvements are pretty significant and could not be rolled out during tax season and will probably not be seen until next year's product. My message to them is that I am going to need more evidence than that and a simple "trust me" is *NOT* going to cut it.

They listened - they took notes - let's see what comes out in the next couple of weeks. I know if I don't see anything before month end, Mr. Marx and I will be chatting again!

Ken, in your discussions with CCH/ATX, did they continue a commitment to the Raven database, will they consider going back to the 2011 software? Just curious to know if that was a question asked or answered.

[Jack from Ohio]

Ken, in your discussions with CCH/ATX, did they continue a commitment to the Raven database, will they consider going back to the 2011 software? Just curious to know if that was a question asked or answered.

They is not a single chance of them going back to the old version of ATX. Get that thought out of your mind. It will never happen. Have you not been reading all the reasons for changing? The program was based on 1995 technology. By my last check, it is 2013. Either grab the idea that you must adapt to new or different software, or go back to doing returns by hand.

IT IS 2013!!!

[Richcpaman]

HVKen and MichaelMars:

I am glad that you had a chance to talk at length with the ATX folks. (And in Mr. Mars' case, drink thier liquor...0

However, How can "we" join you in getting onto the BETA testing list? "We" being members of this forum, for example.

I will be doing tax returns up to October 15th, so I will be able to tell if they are fixing anything for 2012... And 2013 is just a dream...

If it will NOT work on a network, then the rest does not matter.

I will be a "Beta" Tester. Share that info with us...

Rich

[Guest Taxed]

Just curious if there were any beta testers for the 2012 program? What kind of testing did they do? Did they run it on a client-server network?

[Jack from Ohio]

HVKen and MichaelMars:

I am glad that you had a chance to talk at length with the ATX folks. (And in Mr. Mars' case, drink thier liquor...0

However, How can "we" join you in getting onto the BETA testing list? "We" being members of this forum, for example.

I will be doing tax returns up to October 15th, so I will be able to tell if they are fixing anything for 2012... And 2013 is just a dream...

If it will NOT work on a network, then the rest does not matter.

I will be a "Beta" Tester. Share that info with us...

Rich

Ditto! I would like to have all the updates for 2012 and the 2013 beta the moment they have one. I will give it the REAL test.

[Catherine]

I have a HUGE concern with what one of the other members posted in one of the innumerable "this doesn't work!!!" postings this year: that the underlying database structure that CCH chose becomes inherently more unstable the larger it grows. While I do _not_ do 600+ returns in a year, I have many returns that are extremely complex. I noted just last week that a return that is pretty "middle of the road" for me, with only about 60 stock transactions, got _extremely_ slow to navigate around in. Yes, latest program update etc. yadda yadda... and it was back to the LLOONNGG lag time in checking boxes, navigating the detail screens for the 8949 was astoundingly slow -- what will I encounter when I have one of my 400-trade returns? _Was_ this an example of the database instability --- or another internal structure problem?

[TonyP]

They is not a single chance of them going back to the old version of ATX. Get that thought out of your mind. It will never happen. Have you not been reading all the reasons for changing? The program was based on 1995 technology. By my last check, it is 2013. Either grab the idea that you must adapt to new or different software, or go back to doing returns by hand.

IT IS 2013!!!

Hey Jack, I could care less what damn year it is. If the 2011 product was more effective that what we got for the 2012 product, I sure don't mind going back to the 2011 product. You can have all of the "advances in the world" but if they work like a piece of garbage, you can wallow in it. IMHO, ATX was a hell-of-lot better back in the old days, before CCH, than what it is now. If you want to go forward to 2013 with the crap we have, feel free to do so.

If it doesn't happen I can adapt,... I can choose a different software.

[Jack from Ohio]

Hey Jack, I could care less what damn year it is. If the 2011 product was more effective that what we got for the 2012 product, I sure don't mind going back to the 2011 product. You can have all of the "advances in the world" but if they work like a piece of garbage, you can wallow in it. IMHO, ATX was a hell-of-lot better back in the old days, before CCH, than what it is now. If you want to go forward to 2013 with the crap we have, feel free to do so.

If it doesn't happen I can adapt,... I can choose a different software.

I get it now. You can adapt to OTHER different software, but not a new version of THIS software.

The computer, tax and technology world will NEVER go back to 2011.

The tax preparation business is highly technical and complex. As computer technology also advances, as a business that is totally dependent on computers and constantly changing technology, you either learn to adapt, become tech savy or hire people that can.

ATX did a lousy job of changing the engine of their software for 2012. However, reality of our business is that it was a hobbled dinosaur that would not be compatible with up to date hardware and operating systems.

This career field, due to the increasing dependence on complex software and the necessary hardware, will soon become "too much trouble" for those unwilling to adapt and change, and the herd will thin, making more business opportunities for those of us who chose to keep learning, adapting and changing with the job.

The slow speed of the latest "speed increase" of 2012 is what we here have experienced with ATX for the last 5 tax years as the number of clients passes around 500. Granted, the Raven database engine was not the right choice for domain networks, or networks for that matter, but I think the majority of ATX users are standalone, which may have had too much influence in the choices the developers made.

So whether you stay with ATX or choose another software, you WILL be adapting, one way or the other. (sorry to disappoint you)

[Jack from Ohio]

I have a HUGE concern with what one of the other members posted in one of the innumerable "this doesn't work!!!" postings this year: that the underlying database structure that CCH chose becomes inherently more unstable the larger it grows. While I do _not_ do 600+ returns in a year, I have many returns that are extremely complex. I noted just last week that a return that is pretty "middle of the road" for me, with only about 60 stock transactions, got _extremely_ slow to navigate around in. Yes, latest program update etc. yadda yadda... and it was back to the LLOONNGG lag time in checking boxes, navigating the detail screens for the 8949 was astoundingly slow -- what will I encounter when I have one of my 400-trade returns? _Was_ this an example of the database instability --- or another internal structure problem?

YES, both. Database instability caused by internal structure problems. You are now experiencing what us high volume users have experienced since 2006. Hopefully, the new influx of developers will be able to overcome this.

[jklcpa]

YES, both. Database instability caused by internal structure problems. You are now experiencing what us high volume users have experienced since 2006. Hopefully, the new influx of developers will be able to overcome this.

Jack, I don't know enough of the technicalities of software to know this, but you seem to, so here's the main question -

If the base (Raven) that the program it is written on is not suitable for the program in general, is any amount of good developing, restructuring, or patching really going to solve the problems with this program? In another thread you said that they chose a little boy program (Raven) to do a man's work and should have used something like Oracle or SQL.