FreedomTaxed Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 End result: It was a disaster. I can't wait for April 15th to kick these people out the door. I'm kicking myself daily for hiring them (note: I'm not the owner so I didn't have full control of the hiring process). Clarification: I was served up drama, lies, endless incompetence, refusal to obey or follow orders, and militant defensiveness when the least attempt was made to criticize or correct errors. The capper on the deal today was in FINALLY getting a response from the IRS about the alleged EA certification for one of our hires. I sent email to [email protected] to check on the person's EA; I gave the person's first and last name, and their address. The IRS page for this matter assured me that they had a policy of responding within 72 hours. I followed up two weeks later, and still no response. Finally, 38 freakin' days later, I get a response: "Based on the information provided, we have no record for this person." Translation: The employee lied about having an EA. The IRS being impossibly late in responding is one thing. If this is the standard response time, then it's impossible to vet in time an employee candidate when they claim to be an EA. But that's just the icing on a lot of dysfunctional cake. What the heck is out there in the land of tax preparers? It looks like legions of dramatic liars and prima donnas... people who are doing tax preparation work since they can't hold down a real job. The sad thing is that this year we paid $300 to register on monster.com to get qualified candidates. At first, that's what it looked like. Then a lot of little things kept arising during our training period, and then during the actual tax season, it's like people pulled off their fake skin-masks and revealed they were horned demons within. Do any of you run in firms, and so how do you search for and properly vet candidates? Are we pretty much doomed to get insane princesses since this is seasonal work? The two people we hired for part time work, who had real jobs during the day, gave us no problems whatsoever. They wanted to work in tax prep to get some experience in the field. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rfassett Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 Our industry is no different than any other industry in this country. I hear the same theme over and over the whole year through from my clients no matter the industry, it is almost impossible to hire qualified people who are drug free, want to work and have good work ethics. I believe it is the society within which we live. The best advice - fire fast and hire slow. I am on the look out for a highly qualified individual to take the work burden off my shoulders as I move slowly into semi-retirement over the next year or so. I have been looking for about four months now. I am hoping to have someone secured by May 1st, but that is looking less and less promising. And mine is not a seasonal position. This would be a very good career move for someone. I am trusting that the best person will present soon. As to hiring seasonal people, I have no experience with that and don't know what to tell you other than what I have already said. Good luck! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILLMAS Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 I once assisted a past client with hiring an accountant for their business and I was literally shocked when this girl said, "oh accounting is easy, you just enter the information into the computer software and it does everything for you". 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack from Ohio Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 I once assisted a past client with hiring an accountant for their business and I was literally shock when this girl said, "oh accounting is easy, you just enter the information into the computer software and it does everything for you". That line comes from a Turbo Tax commercial!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacun Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 The IRS has a website now that you can check on people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 A couple of years ago I had a kid who wanted tax experience work for me. Had a Master's in Accounting. Too dense to pour sand out of a boot with the directions printed on the heel. This year (actually, last September; I wanted a chance to vett him first) I hired a kid who was a math major. Never finished his degree as he ran out of money, and wanted something that at least started as part-time while he figured out what his next steps were (laid off from his last job). He is *fabulous*. Works hard, understands everything the first time, asks questions that shows he has been thinking, and almost never makes the same mistake twice (and most of his mistakes are where *my* instructions were lacking or ambiguous). God willin' and the creek don't rise, he will take over my business in 5-8 years. So think outside the box. Take a chance on someone without the "right" degree (or even any degree) if they (1) know math, (2) understand they know NOTHING about the tax business, and (3) are willing to learn. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jklcpa Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 As a supervisor/manager, I was in charge of screening resumes, making calls and handling interviews in 2 different firms when it was time to hire. All applicants were college graduates with at least a BS in accounting, some were CPAs or CPA candidates. In those that we hired, I saw everything from incompetence, inattention to detail, drug use during the day, psychological problems, belligerence, tardiness, and lackadaisical attitude just to name some of the problems. Some were good people that ended up being successful in a more structured environment in a corporate accounting dept, but they were not cut out for public accounting with the challenges it presents. A few also left accounting completely, and one of the more outgoing fellows has made out well working in outside sales. I agree with Ron that it is part of the society we live in today. One of our best and hardest working gals started out as our data entry person that didn't have any degree or formal training but had lots of common sense. She probably could have done some of our bookkeeping and reconciliations for clients, but she was busy enough with the computer work and loved it. She helped see that firm through going from outside processing of returns to bringing it all in-house along with all of the data entry for our bookkeeping work. She is now my client, is in her late 60s, and you should see the package of tax documents she puts together for me. Other than the income side that comes from the outside reporting through 1099s, she has her all of her disbursements summarized on a spreadsheet and all of the deductions tied in. It's beautiful. Freedom, I'd start the hiring process a lot earlier next year. Most firms around here have their staffing in place by November at the latest so that the new people are up to speed when the season starts. It also gives time to find out who's going to work out and just who isn't cutting it. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WITAXLADY Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 ONE of my staff walked today! My office admin is maddest as it is not me she is hurting but her and the other tax preparer that have to pick up her work load of phones, collating, receptionist. Said I was mean cuz I wanted her to make her apptmts early or late or when the other front desk person could cover for her. -LIke not at all during tax season - isn't that the best!! And that I needed her to continue to work 3-8 at night to help me out. She said I didn't have many night apptmts so she was leaving at 7 cuz she missed her hubby. I said it is only 3 more weeks. Don't we all miss our families? Took her chair, said mail her her check and rolled out - no good bye nothing, petulant child, pouted all morning .. We will survive! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaraEA Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 I believe that many tax professionals today started out their careers at Block. They had the best training in the business, and potential employers looked for new hires who had Block experience. What has changed? I don't know about the training programs at the other two chains, but has Block's been diluted so much that their graduates don't know s**t? Methinks that perhaps what you are seeing is a shift in the workforce--attitude, respect for authority, work ethic. At our CPA firm we seem to go through one new hire a year. Most seem to spend more time on their smart phones than on their job assignments. I'm not talking about young kids but people in their 30s and 40s who spend more time texting and on Facebook than in the accounting software. Most knew tax or were easily taught and did a good job with it, when they actually paid attention to what they were doing instead of being distracted by their phones and personal lives. The best employee we had in the past few years was an undergrad accounting student who worked summers. He kept his nose to the grindstone and the only electronics I observed was ipod music. Alas, he graduated and went to work for one of the big four, where he is working 70 hour weeks even when it's not tax season. We must teach our children to do better. Begin with the forgotten fact that you must EARN your pay, not just show up. Your personal life, except for emergencies, goes on hold from 9 to 5. Next teach them to solve problems all by themselves. Too many parents today do not let their children fail at anything, praise them when they don't deserve it, and run their lives for them. No wonder they don't take work seriously. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joanmcq Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 My assistant is a friend that I knew had been taking classes at community college to get an accounting certificate. Was in her early 40s and has an unusual appearance that makes it hard for her to get work. She had done no tax work except for filing her own EZ forms. This is her third tax season, and she now does most of my data entry, knows more about same sex couple taxes than most practitioners, does all of the bookkeeping, and runs the payroll clients. Some returns I literally only have to review and hit print. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFA Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 I made a poor hire choice this year too. I started the person in November, full time. Very nice, had all the credentials, but just couldn't deliver the quality that we need. Let him go on Feb 13. Within days, we hired another CPA who hit the ground running. He has analyzed our work flow and made some great suggestions that have really smoothed out our process. We also hired two young part-timers who are helping to scan, print and assemble our finished returns. Every now and then, in the worst moments, something great just happens. We got lucky for sure. Sometimes we need to run through the deck of cards and pull a few jokers before finding the aces. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kcjenkins Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 I believe that many tax professionals today started out their careers at Block. They had the best training in the business, and potential employers looked for new hires who had Block experience. What has changed? I don't know about the training programs at the other two chains, but has Block's been diluted so much that their graduates don't know s**t? I think that what changed was COMPUTERS. When we did returns on paper, by hand, we had to know what we were doing, what went on which form, etc. And Block did teach a pretty good course, and their students had to pass a tough test to get hired. Even when we started using computer software, the early programs were basically just 'tools', you had to know what forms to call up, where to put things, the program was mostly a calculator. Today, though, the programs call up many of the forms automatically, they 'prompt' the user, so it's possible for someone with minimum tax knowledge to think they are competent preparers. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joanmcq Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 This ^^ I must say the tax class my assistant is in now at community college is doing a good job of making the students both work on programs and doing forms by hand. Bookkeeping is the same. I learned on green accounting paper. I still don't understand how QB does the things it does. One of the reasons I hate it I guess. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gail in Virginia Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 And Joan, when I am trying to figure out journal entries, I sometimes still draw t-accounts just to clarify my thinking. I agree that computers can be a "crutch" for people who don't really understand accounting or taxation. But I cannot imagine doing returns today without them - just having them to remind me about AMT is invaluable. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFA Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 I am considering creating my own basic income tax class for the public as well as Quckbooks training. Like Block maybe I can find talent who will pay me for the interview! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcb39 Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 Isn't this interesting? The girl I had for two years could have stepped into my shoes some day. However, in two years, she learned absolutely nothing. ZERO! This year, I have my cousin who is my age working WITH me and doing a fantastic job. She doesn't savvy computers much, but she is awesome with the calculator and green paper spreadsheets. She got a $20 tip the other day from a client who brought his stuff in a grocery bag. She says she never got a "tip" before in her life. The downside here is huge. We will go down together unless we find a data entry person next year or the year after.; or she picks up the pace. This is no time to be teaching anyone how to prepare a tax return on software. She totally "gets" the paper and pencil aspect. Nevertheless, I am counting my blessings. By the time some of these returns get to me, they are so organized that I can just input data. If a contractor or any business person has a pack of gum mixed in with his business supplies; out it goes. Taking it one day at a time in Wisconsin! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion EA Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 (edited) Hey, SFA, where are you located? I'd hire from your students if you teach. Heck, I might take your courses myself. Especially QuickBooks. I had an assistant when I started. High hopes. Single mom with first of three in college, so thought I'd have her for a long time. Day job in outside sales, but not very well paid. Took HRB Basic Course, but decided she could make more money as a Block receptionist (or whatever title they used then). She was in my HRB office then, and I admired her intelligence and practicality. She was good the first tax season at data entry, figuring things out, calling customers for information, even going out to my elderly to make sure they had all their documents to bring in. (She was very sloppy at assembling and filing; so I took back anything to do with delivering the product to my clients.) I gave her a huge bonus. Hubby often cooked breakfast on Saturdays. Treated her royally. By her second next tax season, she had a boyfriend who wanted to stay in NY; she lived in CT. Constant last-minute calls to miss work, mugged, car vandalized, kid sick in out-of-state college, mysterious surgery, more outlandish excuses each week; very sporadic attendance (she was only one night and Saturdays per her choice, anyway, even though I tried to start her with the three nights plus Saturday that she had worked at HRB). She did very little besides her own, boyfriend's, all her kids', and her best friend's returns, and a little data entry. I did get her back for an intense time before 15 October. Third tax season I did NOT contact her. She needed to retrieve info to help with the older daughters' financial aid, even used my fax machine to send. She moved to NY. A couple of years later, I heard from her again wanting info when her oldest was teaching English in Japan, or some international issue. I gave her IRS Pub. #s and suggested a US Council office. In the meantime, I had another potential assistant who couldn't start as soon my first year. When she finally was available, I started her with going to two different elderly clients to help them pay bills once/week or at least twice/month. She reconciled their bank statements, gathered their tax documents, caught a theft from a bank account by a former home healthcare worker and trafficked it through until the bank returned the funds to our client, organized a couple of my "shopping bag" clients, did some pick-ups and deliveries, and was good with clients. She was a bit messy, and I don't read her writing well, but she could organize a bag of papers with green ledger paper, pencil, and adding machine tapes. Even though HRB trained and an office manager, she wasn't really up to data entry and is never going to progress to complete tax returns. I lost my elderly gentlemen (one to an out-of-state home near his son, and one passed) but I still have my gal in a few times/year to organize the bags from clients and also to sort through our own documents (the shoemaker's children syndrome). A gal from church came to me wanting work. She did a lot in QuickBooks. Bright, managed a family business, and had been expanding her QB work on both PCs and Macs. I had a new client using QB Mac as well as several on PCs. Self-employed husband and two small kids and lived really close in my town. We talked about her doing QB for me and learning tax from me and taking over my business. I thought it was a great fit. Well, after a QB project or two, she got a job in a town with a very long commute with very thick traffic (something she was trying to avoid with two small kids) but it had benefits, especially medical that I told her I could offer in the future as our income increased but not at the beginning. Then I gave up on people! Trying to scan more and need to do the "flow" part more. Do have most of my investors' brokers giving me Excel spreadsheets to import. And, getting more clients to accept extensions (those that came from HRB were not used to extensions) to spread out the work load. Hubby does some deliveries and schmoozes my clients. I have a mail slot in my front door for drop-offs. Maybe hubby can learn the scan & flow.... I'm drowning. Every envelope I open up includes new things. College daughter now works in three states, spouse started a biz out of state, parents died and need returns done, between jobs for a few months so got really active in investment accounts, marital problems so having to go over everything twice, forgot to tell me they have a trust, grown son on a ship so here's his info too, didn't notice they withheld for a wrong state, etc. No one's financial life gets simpler! Edited March 28, 2015 by Lion EA 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcb39 Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 It never gets easier; only more complicated. When we first started, we thought that we would be young forever. In some ways, I still feel that way, but know that it is unrealistic. Finding someone younger with our dedication is not as easy as it should be. Coming up the hard way is not part of the current makeup. Those with a small amount of experience want to start out at the top with the pay that goes with it. That will never happen here. A few years ago, I had one gal work for me two evenings. That was her attitude. Needless to say, two evenings is all she got. After I added on to my office, she wanted to come back and I HAD to turn her down. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreedomTaxed Posted March 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 The IRS has a website now that you can check on people. Do you have a link to that? I'm going to need all my faculties and tools in order to wage a hiring war next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gail in Virginia Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 Truthfully, I am not sure why anyone would want to go into this business anymore. Maybe because I am tired, but I feel like I am expected to be an auditor for the IRS in addition to a trust financial adviser, marital counselor, psychologist, secretary, bookkeeper, insurance salesman, and oh yeah, tax preparer. All for about 10 - 15 dollars per hour. With no sleep. No home life. Okay, pity party is over. Back to work. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreedomTaxed Posted March 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 So think outside the box. Take a chance on someone without the "right" degree (or even any degree) if they (1) know math, (2) understand they know NOTHING about the tax business, and (3) are willing to learn. The previous business owner had always tried to hire people who didn't have tax prep experience at all. I'm starting to wonder if there was a method to that madness. There's at least the distinct possibility that they'll do what you order them to do, and your monopoly on knowledge gives your orders a natural authority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreedomTaxed Posted March 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 Freedom, I'd start the hiring process a lot earlier next year. Most firms around here have their staffing in place by November at the latest so that the new people are up to speed when the season starts. It also gives time to find out who's going to work out and just who isn't cutting it. We started our search a little after Nov 1st. Our first interview was on the 5th. Official training started 3-4 weeks later. I don't think our timeline is at fault. What I'll try to fix next year is my failure to fix the business owner. I left all post-interview vetting efforts to her, and it's clear to me now that she pencil-whipped it all. I can't let that happen again. I also blame myself for letting all the little indicators go by me, when they clearly told me who was a severe problem just waiting for it's time to appear. The most troublesome employee today was the one who was falling asleep during training, for example. Next year's gotta be different, or I should just quit. There's no point in inviting cobras into your bed. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFA Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 (edited) I also hired a very experienced tax preparer (but new to our office) in November. She was receiving unemployment, and I did not have work for her until mid January. She was good with that, so I stopped looking. Turns out that we were just a "place holder" for her while she aggressively continued to look for full-time employment. On the third day with us, she slipped out for "lunch" (code for a hiring interview elsewhere). She was offered and accepted a job with them and waited until 5pm to give me her notice. That also happened with another hire who was on unemployment before joining us. Apparently, he had sent so many applications out, that low and behold, once he finally accept a job with us, offers continued to dribble in. I had him for one month. Competing with unemployment benefits is tough when it comes to hiring professionals. They often receive more UC benefits than our opening positions offer. For some, when they run out of UC benefits, they scramble for work and use us as "place holders" until something better comes along. It is difficult to offer health insurance, retirement plans, etc. and compete with larger companies for the good talent. Argh. This is a tough business. We must continue to adapt to the changing markets. I am determined to look for diamonds. They are out there, and I already have found a few. Edited March 28, 2015 by SFA 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion EA Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 You can get a list of EAs directly from the IRS for $35: http://www.irs.gov/uac/Active-Enrolled-Agents-Listing You can look up members for free at NAEA: https://member.naea.org/naeassa/rflssareferral.query_page?p_vendor_ty=EA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WITAXLADY Posted March 29, 2015 Report Share Posted March 29, 2015 and the part I dislike more and more is working for the IRS instead of the taxpayer - unpaid 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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